live 5 + operator upgrade offer - should there be one?

nuperspective · Post by **nuperspective** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:29 am

I havent yet upgraded to operator. I do intend to. With live 5 on the way should there be an upgrade offer if you do both at the same time when live 5 is released?

what do you think.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:43 am

Well. You cant say that the operator hasn't payed off.
Ableton has been able to hire (or geneticly modify) kick-ass programmers.

Seriously. Those guys are working at a jaw-dropping rate.
So i doubt they will make it cheaper.

(between you and me: the operator blows most synths out of the water now that we have device groups

)

nuperspective · Post by **nuperspective** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:00 am

dont get me wrong i dont mean give it away just it will most likely be 129 euros for live 5 and 129 euros for operator. if you did both at the same time how about 199 euros?

i was going to get operator, but now live 5 has been announced the money go to that instead. it would be easier and more temping to part with the cash if a deal was offered.

mokomo · Post by **mokomo** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:38 am

I don't think there is any need for discounting ... but if there is to be a operator + L5 upgrade "deal", then those users who have already bought operator MUST then get discounted L5 upgrade price. Their good faith shown in Ableton in buying operator when it came out helped to pay the developers who have brought you L5

nuperspective · Post by **nuperspective** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:02 pm

fair point

FaX-01 · Post by **FaX-01** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:08 pm

mokomo wrote:I don't think there is any need for discounting ... but if there is to be a operator + L5 upgrade "deal", then those users who have already bought operator MUST then get discounted L5 upgrade price. Their good faith shown in Ableton in buying operator when it came out helped to pay the developers who have brought you L5 :D

Why?
You chose to purchase Operator WHEN it was announced.
And then you wish to be compensated for a purchase if it's included as a bundle saled item in V5 ? ... pretty convoluted logic IMHO.

So if I go to my favourite clothing store where I'm a loyal shopper and buy a $120 pair of jeans.

3 weeks later the store is selling 2 for the price of one in a "Sale Special", does that mean I should now be able to go in and get 3 pairs for the price of two because I already puchased 1 pair @ $121 or that I should therefore be entitled to a 50% on any one of my next purchases?

If you bundle Live with Operator for an extra 100Euro it still generates extra revenue for the Abe's for further development . tech and business growth.
People would have a choice between the Live 5 update / or Live5 + Operator pricing scheme.
Much like YOU it would boil down to choice as too which upgrade you'd get and wether or not you want Operator to include Operator as a viable extra expense.
It's called running a business.
The Abe's have no need or obligation to have discounted Live5 Upgrades to owners who already have Operator.
They do have a right to market their own products as they see fit to get the maximum amount of return for tech development, programming and A&R costs.
If they couldn't exercise that right how they see fit they would be out of business pretty quick in this sort of working environment.

nuperspective · Post by **nuperspective** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:57 pm

fair comment. but thats the way i see it. okay operator hasnt been out long. as far as i'm concerned it a logical step. i'm sure everyone who bought it on release won't be happy. however, thats life and business.

Deft · Post by **Deft** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:07 pm

Yeah, software can devalue just like other goods!

nuperspective · Post by **nuperspective** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:08 pm

tell me about it. i've just bought an original copy of native instruments dynamo for a fiver. old but still a bargin.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:10 am

Deft wrote:Yeah, software can devalue just like other goods!

In case of that argument.....
Software can raise in value just like other goods

If you guys really didnt want the operator, you wouldn't make such big deal of it.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:27 am

hoffman2k wrote:Well. You cant say that the operator hasn't payed off.
Ableton has been able to hire (or geneticly modify) kick-ass programmers.

Seriously. Those guys are working at a jaw-dropping rate.
So i doubt they will make it cheaper.

(between you and me: the operator blows most synths out of the water now that we have device groups )

No offense man, but what's with the sales pitch?

Why on earth would the changes in 5 be seen as "jaw dropping"? Logic 7 brought more to the table than 5 brings Live, and Sonar had a couple of insane updates, but this is all moot. I still don't see how an FM synth that isn't as complex or CPU friendly as FM7 is blowing other synths out of the water?

I like Live, hell I post here don't I? but I don't understand why people go for this whole cheerleader routine?

For the record I don't care for bundled synths and FX. I just want Live to get decent productivity enhancing features, more key commands for the sub windows etc. not more stuff I would rather go with VST or AU versions of.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:43 am

First i thought you where going to get me on "all synths"...
Because I meant softsynths...

I could give a whole list of reasons. But let me just go over the essentials.

First lets take a look at comparing fm7 and operator.
Fm7 has more operators, built-in effects and those envelopes everybody raves about...

Before making patches for the operator. I messed around with some fm(soft)synths, to get an idea of the kind of patches i could make.
Strip the effects on most patches. And you end up with a pretty basic tone that is very easy to recreate with the operator.

Now add effects to the recreated operator patches.
Getting pretty close...

Now the envelopes. Most people are unaware of this.
But if you have a clip with automation playing on a track while monitor is "on" and you play the keyboard.
The automation will work.
So this kicks even more ass then fm7 (or absynths) envelopes.

The cpu issue:
I can make patches which use so little cpu. That i can run +- 100 operators without getting any dropouts
On the other hand. I can make a patch which uses 80% cpu and causes dropouts.

And about the chearleading...

Give me an "O", Give me a "P",.....

Don't hate me cause i'm brainwashed

nuperspective · Post by **nuperspective** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:20 am

err. yes that right. but should ableton do a live 5 + operator bundle at a reduced rate to make 'on the fencers' like me part with their hard earned?

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:37 am

hoffman2k wrote:First lets take a look at comparing fm7 and operator.
Fm7 has more operators, built-in effects and those envelopes everybody raves about...

Yup, plus a cleaner sound over all. I just did not care for Operator at all, and wished that Ableton hadn't wasted code time on something I feel was better done by third parties. CPU wise, I can't make a single patch in FM7 that uses half the resources that a piggish Operator patch uses, and I hear nothing in the "sound quality" that justifies this. I simply think FM7 sounds better.

I like Live a lot, in fact I try to convert people to it who do live electronic music. I think there is too static of a structure to most sequenced music and Live helps to eliminate that problem. But I find this constant need to gush praise on every move Ableton makes a little disconcerting. There are plenty of things missing in Live 5 IMO, almost as much as there are things I look forward to using on a regular basis. The freeze functionality looks like it's implemented really well, and should be a real time saver. The track resizing looks a little undercooked to me, and the fact that extended key commands for control of the user interface is again missing, is a total mystery to me? Like i said, if you're looking for a job there I guess it makes sense, but I wish people could be critical without getting weird about it, or having people do the >>>nO wAy MAn LiVE oWNs!!! RA rA siS BOOM BAH!! routine.....

-<<<

PS--- Man, you have to be getting money from Ableton or something??? Absynth absolutely blows Operator out of the water in all respects, there is NO comparison, ZERO! The only synths comparable for uniqueness of sounds are Zebra, Sculpture, and Reactor.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:08 am

Machinesworking wrote: PS--- Man, you have to be getting money from Ableton or something??? Absynth absolutely blows Operator out of the water in all respects, there is NO comparison, ZERO! The only synths comparable for uniqueness of sounds are Zebra, Sculpture, and Reactor.

Hehe. Not getting payed unfortunatly

I agree that reaktor rocks. But absynth is nothing more then 3 layered synths with effects. (to me)
If we could save groups + settings in Live, You could create even sweeter sounds.

the sound you are after differs from the one i'm after. So naturally we'll prefer different synths.
Thats why there are so many of them, right?

And about the sales pitch... You don't have to take my word for it. What do i know. It's not like i bought and tried every synth out there.
My favorite synths are operator, audiorealism's Bassline, automat.
I can get almost every sound i need out of those.
To each his own..

live 5 + operator upgrade offer - should there be one?

live 5 + operator upgrade offer - should there be one?

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