Need help selecting Sound Card to capably support Live

[GabryRox33]

Hello,

This is my first post so I will start with a quick introduction. My name is Jim and I've been and on and off musician for the better part of 30 years. I've owned a Roland Fantom-X6 for about 3-4 years with the intent of re-learning keyboard playing and programming/creating tracks. However, things just never quite clicked for me so I have not done nearly as much as I would have liked on it.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago. Came across a few videos on YouTube with various DAW's that intrigued me, so started investigating and sampling current DAW's, finally deciding that Ableton Live Suite was the one I wanted to try.
I'm currently in the trial period and am attempting to immerse myself and learn as much as I can before ultimately deciding to purchase. I picked up Ask Video's training tutorials and got through the first 5-6 (level 1) last night, but something that I saw in the 2nd tutorial now has me concerned that I will probably need to purchase a higher-end audio card in order to maximize my use of Live.

This is what I base my concern on: In the video, the audio setting screen shows "Buffer Size" at 256 samples and Input & Output Latency at under 7ms. However, on my screen, I have a greyed out "0 Samples" in "Input Buffer" and "4096 Samples" (changeable) in "Output Buffer". My Input Latency says 0 ms but Output and Overall are at 92.9 ms. Granted, I am pretty much a complete beginner at this point but from what I've gleaned, neither the 0 samples for input buffer or 92.9 MS for latency are even close to being acceptable. In the driver type box, it shows “MME/DirectX” as the only option.

I’m assuming my problem is that I currently do not have an add-on sound card installed in my desktop system, so I am looking for recommendations to get me what I need. Here’s my current desktop setup:

- Intel i7-2600k
- Asus P8P67LE (B3 Rev) MB
- Windows 7 Pro 64
- 8 GB RAM
- NVidia GeForce GTX-550Ti
- Over 4TB free hard drive space

I did a search in this forum and saw that apparently RME comes highly recommended? I found the following 2 on Amazon:

- RME HDSP PCI desktop inteface for Multiface, Digiface for $329
- RME HDSP 9632 PCI audio interface, 32-Channel 24-Bit/192kHz for $499

Firstly, this is more than I expected to spend, esp the 2nd one, but frankly, I don’t mind spending the money if the product is superior and truly needed. However, my bigger concern with these is that I am a bit baffled by the ports on these things. The first one appears to have only a Fire-wire port. I’m ashamed to say I don’t even recognize the ports on the 2nd one. I guess I do not understand how these differ from your more typically used sound cards. Do you have to buy something additional to plug into the Firewire port… for instance, to plug your speakers into? I currently use a nice set of Bose Companion 3 satellites and sub on this PC but they plug into a regular 1/8” audio jack port.

When I was building my current system a few months ago, I was considering the Asus sound card below but opted wait and see how the onboard audio sounded. But yet again, this does not appear to have a standard 1/8” speaker out port, so I’m not sure how I would hook up my current speakers into this.

ASUS Xonar Essence ST 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Audio Card, for $210

The ports on the following SB card below are more of what I am used to dealing with (just for reference). But I’m assuming that at under $100, this card would not be sufficient for running Live well.

Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D THX PCIE Sound Card SB1350

So bottom line, would be looking for your recommendations on best cards to support Live, as well as how to hook up my current speakers if I get a card without the 1/8” speaker out plug. Price wise, around $300-350 would be optimal but could probably go close to $500 if I really needed to (dang, that’s almost as much as my entire PC cost to build lol).

Sorry for the long message but I wanted to be thorough. Thanks in advance for your help!

Jim

[UltimateOutsider]

- RME HDSP PCI desktop inteface for Multiface, Digiface for $329
- RME HDSP 9632 PCI audio interface, 32-Channel 24-Bit/192kHz for $499

...

ASUS Xonar Essence ST 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Audio Card, for $210

...

Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D THX PCIE Sound Card SB1350

I don't know anything about the Xonar card, but the first RME card doesn't appear to be a complete package; I think it requires an additional breakout box that doesn't seem to be included with the package. The second card comes with a special cable that gives you a couple analog ports, but you need add-on cards to get more ins/outs.

RME have a very good reputation for low-latency interfaces, but they're among the priciest brand. (The interface I was looking at last week is around $2K USD.)

A SoundBlaster is generally not an appropriate solution, not just because of the sub-optimal ins/outs but for latency concerns as well. I was experimenting with a PCI-express SoundBlaster last week just to compare it to my FireWire interface and the best input latency I could get on it (on a well-equipped DAW) was 69ms, using the Creative ASIO driver (it was over 300ms with the DirectX Full Duplex ASIO driver). My MOTU UltraLite mk3 gives me just a li'l over 12ms, which is fine for my needs; an imperceptible delay when recording. I've heard folks with RME interfaces boast of 6ms input latency, which is better than what I'm getting, but not $1500 USD better.

[cotdagoo]

Since your current sound card doesn't seem to have ASIO drivers, I would give the ones at www.ASIO4ALL.com a shot to see if it will drop your latency to something a little more usable.

However that won't solve the connecting to external speakers issue or plugging in mic/line inputs if at some point you wish to record your Fantom.

Took a peek at the motherboard specs and it looks like your motherboard has 1394a (firewire 400) support, so your options for interfaces opens up a bit more.

Personally, I'd try and find a used MOTU Ultralite (the original firewire only version, not the mk3 with usb/firewire) for cheap (seen them on Ebay for $300 or less).
It's built like a tank, and provides decent latency, plus a ton of ins & outs for plugging in just about anything you'd ever need.

Some info here - http://www.zzounds.com/item--MTUULTRALITE

[GabryRox33]

@ Ultimate - Yeah, at this point I can't really see dropping so much on RME gear. $350 would be one thing but to have to get additional gear on top of that? Probably not the best move for a complete beginner. Agree about the Sound Blaster, wasn't really considering it, more just listing it for reference of the style that I'm familiar with.

@ cotdagoo - I checked out that ASIO4ALL site and that looks really promising. I'm going to download and install the latest version later and see where it gets me. I also like the look of that MOTU unit you referenced. I'll dig into the specs a bit more on that after I see where I get with the ASIO install.

Thanks to you both for your input. Any others would be most welcome... especially if anyone has experience with the Asus card I mentioned.

[McQ714]

The first RME card you mentioned definitely needs the additional breakout box and so you would have to spend a lot more than just that price.
The second has a couple of ports and some optional cables/cards to give you more connections than are just on the card alone.
The Asus card is a consumer multimedia card used mostly for basic media playback and HTPC installations as is the Creative card. These can be used but are not recommended for music production as they can sometimes "color" the sound if you don't have the correct settings in the included software.

I'd suggest you keep looking. You can go the firewire route or even usb. I would still suggest RME over all other brands you might find on Sweetwater or Musician's Friend. But there are definitely some very well-respected brands in lower price ranges that will suit your needs just fine. Native Instruments would be one of those.

[GabryRox33]

Thanks McQ, I really had no idea there was this entire segment of external audio units out there so this has been a learning experience for sure. Luckily my MB already has a FW400 port available, and it seems that there's quite a choice for units with that connectivity (not to mention USB). Frankly, that's probably preferable to me anyway since I won't have to crack my PC tower to install an internal sound card. Also, I did not realize that the consumer cards such as the Asus & Soundblaster line tainted the sound spectrum. I suppose that the Bose speaker I have hooked up to this PC also do that to a degree, which means I will probably eventually need to hook up my KRK V6 Studio Monitors to this setup when I eventually decide on the right external sounds device. I also suppose that external will end up being a much more flexible choice in the long run, should I ever decide to do anything of the mobile variety with a laptop. I will continue to research and see what I can find.

Update on the ASIO4ALL situation... just installed their new Beta version this morning and wow, what a differnce! Firstly, my buffer size now sits at the expected 256 samples but the big difference is the latency... was 92.9ms, now it's showing 5.8ms input and 5.8ms output for overall latency of 11.6!

From what I've read, it seems that these numbers are withing the acceptable range (especially given my beginner status). If this is correct, can I assume that the main benefits from purchasing an external audio unit are to 1)increase number of audio channels and 2) increase input/output options? Anything else to be concerned with while looking for these?

[cotdagoo]

Update on the ASIO4ALL situation... just installed their new Beta version this morning and wow, what a differnce! Firstly, my buffer size now sits at the expected 256 samples but the big difference is the latency... was 92.9ms, now it's showing 5.8ms input and 5.8ms output for overall latency of 11.6!

From what I've read, it seems that these numbers are withing the acceptable range (especially given my beginner status). If this is correct, can I assume that the main benefits from purchasing an external audio unit are to 1)increase number of audio channels and 2) increase input/output options? Anything else to be concerned with while looking for these?

Those numbers look a LOT better!

1) It should make no difference to the amount of audio channels you can run - this will be more CPU/speed related.
2) Will definitely increase your input/output options (good for recording)
3) Ability to hook up KRK monitors with 1/4" balanced cables for better monitoring

Given your beginner status, and that you've got an acceptable latency to work with.. I'd honestly hold off on the external sound card until you're at the point you feel you need to expand, or do more with your current setup.

I use my MOTU Ultralite on a desktop system for mixing down with my KRK monitors, but often do most of my playing, exploring, etc.. on a laptop with a decent set of headphones.. Which is perfectly acceptable to me (using ASIO4ALL drivers with built in soundcard)

[GabryRox33]

Yeah, thanks again for that tip to the ASIO4ALL site, lseems to be an amazing product! I think I will probably wait for a bit to see what I can accomplish with my current set-up before forking out more money for the SC.

I think i still have some learning to do about audio channels, balanced vs unbalanced cables etc. Doenst make much sense to fork out more $ til I have a better grasp on that stuff. Thanks much for your assistance!

[GabryRox33]

OK, so I've run into a bit of a problem. For the first couple of days after installing that ASIO4ALL program, I had no noticeable issues... just improved my latency with no apparent side effects. However, in the last few days I've started noticing some issues:

1- I'm now getting this sporadic "stutturing" in all of my audio (playing CD's, MP3's, video, in addition to Live). It plays perfect for a maybe up to a minute or two but then has this kind of slurring of the audio for 1-2 seconds, then goes back to normal... but it does it repeatedly and I can't get it to stop (rebooted several times).

2- The other thing I noticed is that when I'm using Live along with the embedded video player in the ASK Video Live 8 Tutorials I'm using, sometimes the sound in either Live or the Training Tutorial simply doesnt work. I have to close one or both apps, and re-launch, as well as possibly un-selecting the ASIO driver within Live (although that part does not appear to be scientific).

Anyway, I have not made any other system changes recently so I'm assuming this may have something to do with the ASIO installation. Aside from uninstalling and trying a fresh install of this App, is there anything that anyone can suggest to check?

[matthews]

2- The other thing I noticed is that when I'm using Live along with the embedded video player in the ASK Video Live 8 Tutorials I'm using, sometimes the sound in either Live or the Training Tutorial simply doesnt work. I have to close one or both apps, and re-launch, as well as possibly un-selecting the ASIO driver within Live (although that part does not appear to be scientific).

Asio4all only allows one instance of audio to pass through it at a time. So if you have live open, you can't have a youtube video playing as well, or a video from another source, or itunes running, etc.

Bit of a drag

Apparently their are a few workarounds floating out there though....

[cotdagoo]

Have a peek at the bottom of this page - http://blog.dubspot.com/optimize-your-w ... roduction/ for "15) Processor Scheduling".

I currently have mine set to 'Background Services' as it's been suggested in many pc/daw optimization guides over the years. It could help, or hinder, but I don't ever recall having mine set to anything else in years of using ASIO4ALL.

[Mister Natural]

in terms of affordable sound cards, I found the EMU 1212 to be a pretty good option for me-self. It was a bit fussy to get dialed-in, but now runs beautifully

in terms of getting comfortable with LIVE - 30 days won't do it. Give yourself a good 6 months to develop a comfort level with this deep & amazing software. You don't need to purchase the whole Suite at first to get there; one of the Intro or Lite versions are more-than perfectly acceptable for a newbie

peace