OT: Bombs / power failure on London Underground

[Sales Dude McBoob]

I don't buy into the idea that the intention of the terrorists is to 'stop the modern world' or to 'end freedom'. I think the people with the money to fund these organizations have other things on their minds, namely shifting financial power away from the US and Europe. That's why I'm so dissapointed that our leaders make brash, shortsighted decisons, such as the occupation of Iraq, that just seem to weaken us all around.

I also like to think of us Live-heads as a community, and I think it's healthy to discuss these topics here.

[xuoham]

Well as a Londoner with friends in the midst of these atrocities, I am as anti-Bush/Blair as I was yesterday. Being opposed to the terrorists doesn't make me side with (those who I perceive to be) other aggressors.

I totally agree with your point! Stop the childish manicheism! I used to see alot this graffiti in Paris in the 70's: "neither trusts nor soviets", that is, neither capitalism nor communism... now the coldwar is over, this could be "neither the Coran nor the Bible". Both have become, regardless of their potential spiritual value (if there is any... 20%?5%? 1%?) merely mob controling tools. It is politics, not spirituality! The really enlighted one does not care about converting people, nor feels offended by any attack on his credence. Claiming the name of god (wath's that?), freedom (what's that?) is so simpleminded, so incredibly childish, watever the purpose, crusade or jihad, a thousand years ago or now. I can't believe so many people identify to that! There's no "evil", man's only dark side is his stupidity... and ignorance. It is a truly sad and scary thing to see people randomly slaughtered, but this is almost everyday in the world, it just doesn't make the news headline. And this is too bad for the "altermondialist" contestation that was going on, like for any G8 summit in the recent years. It's now just shadowed by the big London news. In a way, global warming is on the long term so much more terrible than 40deads and 1000 wounded. And Bush saying he doesn't agree on Kyoto protocol because he doesn't want some americans to loose their job, that's a horrible thing, not as striking as a limb torn apart or guts spilled on the sidewalk, but it is something terrible one could call "soft horror", like Bush administration is a bunch of "soft fascists", like Monsanto putting patents on agricultural seeds is "soft fascism". After all, Al Qaeda is a Bush&Co self made toy that probably just got out of control:
Bush-Cheney families linked with Ben Laden families (oil business), Oussama-CIA hand in hand against Soviet Union in Afghanistan. So crusading in the name of freedom (hello Monsanto!) is as absurd as jihading against, for example Salman Rushdie... Fuck U Bush, Fuck U Ben Laden! (And fuck U Chirac, by the way...)
My 2 cents, ok?

[Former Pharaoh]

then pharoah, you are an idiot

WOW! Now that was an excellent response! Enough to convince me that yes....I am wrong and an idiot.
Thanks for "enlightning" me raj.

[Jordan Vesteyo]

MontrealBreaks, well said, I watched the Towers come down on 9/11 from my deck. I agree with you about AlQueda not wanting the G8 to address African poverty, great recruting ground. You hit it right on the head. The radical Islamic scurge are something that has to be won over by will and education and providing people with a different path a way for them to have a say in there future. They use the western world as something to point their problems on, a scape goat. These bastards don't want us or our way's of life to survive(all of us). Yes we have our differences between european and american culture and our views. But I love europe and it's people and I love playing there. These acts will only strengthen our resolve. I am speaking not only of Americans but all people no matter where they are. These cowards target innocent people to try to get there point across. They will only fail....... God Bless the British, our best wishes and hearts go out to you.

[Aural Chaos]

I'm leaving this country - moving somewhere in central or South America - terrorist don't care about them

That's almost the dumbest thing I've read in this whole thread! Are you unaware of the 1000's of people murdered and tortured in Latin America?!

[Former Pharaoh]

Poor starving African muslims are an excellent recruiting base. Impoverished, unstable Africa is an excellent place to hide and train.

Ah, so you have been to Africa i see. What parts have you visited? The parts they show you on TV?
Sure, there are sections in any 3rd world country or any country for that matter that appear 'uncivilised' but let's not allow arrogant minds to stereotype that as "unstable".

[Jordan Vesteyo]

well said Aural Chaos...... and Pharoh or (Former) admiting it (idiocy) is the first step to recovery.............

[djadonis206]

I'm leaving this country - moving somewhere in central or South America - terrorist don't care about them

That's almost the dumbest thing I've read in this whole thread! Are you unaware of the 1000's of people murdered and tortured in Latin America?!

No I'm not so with blind faith I go...

[thoughtpyramid]

I agree with Pharoah. He is not an idiot. Emotions have a way of shadowing the truth. Support for the Iraq war has plummeted both in the U.S. and Britian. Yet Blair continues his unwavering support for it. Perhaps ol' Tony called in a favor with the IRA?

[Angstrom]

Just a thought :


if you really distrust your government so much as to think that they might kill their own citizens en-masse to make a political point.

It might be wise not to say so on a public web-forum that they might read

not unless you wanna wind up dead.


Personally I think they are fine upstanding men, honest and brave. I for one welcome our warfaring oil-obsessed neo-con militant christian overlords.

[Martyn]

Personally I think they are fine upstanding men, honest and brave. I for one welcome our warfaring oil-obsessed neo-con militant christian overlords.

Careful man, I've heard you can get shot for using loaded sarcasm like that.

[Former Pharaoh]

Personally I think they are fine upstanding men, honest and brave. I for one welcome our warfaring oil-obsessed neo-con militant christian overlords.

Careful man, I've heard you can get shot for using loaded sarcasm like that.

YEAH!!!! What the hell are you thinking Angstrom? Freedom of speech??????

It might be wise not to say so on a public web-forum that they might read

errr, what i meant to say was i am glad my tax dollars are being well spent by our trustworthy political figures
**raising American flag on front porch**
-Ahem- I pledge allegiance, to the flag...........


By the way TP.....nice name!!!!! Good call on the IRA

[montrealbreaks]

Poor starving African muslims are an excellent recruiting base. Impoverished, unstable Africa is an excellent place to hide and train.

Ah, so you have been to Africa i see. What parts have you visited? The parts they show you on TV?

I've been to Egypt - and not just the Nile "green strip" either. I've spent time all over the country. I know well over two dozen people who have worked in Ethiopia / Eritrea, the Sudan, Somalia, South Africa, Sierra Leone, Cote D'Ivoire, and Rawanda. I went to school to learn French with recent immigrants to Canada, and count among my peers people born and raised in Algeria and Morocco. One of my best friends' lived in Libya for over five years while her father worked there. One of my childhood friends' came to Canada from Ghana. When I went to University, I studied History. I started my M.A. (never finished) but my thesis was the anticolonial movement of the 19th and 20th centuries - obviously Africa and Asia focused predominantly in my studies. Plus, my professional life is closely involved with keeping abreast of international affairs. So my information isn't only from TV, I know a LOT about Africa, more than 99% of North Americans anyways... though admittedly I do watch TV on occasion.

However to be fair I admit that I can see your point - My earlier post seems to indicate that all of Africa is a recruiting ground for Al Qaeda because of its poverty. This is not necessarily the case, you are right. I should have qualified my statement to indicate that certain regions fo Africa, particularly those which the G8 were going to discuss debt relief (about half of which are predominantly muslim) ARE the same regions from where Al Qaeda has a strong recruiting base.

Sure, there are sections in any 3rd world country or any country for that matter that appear 'uncivilised' but let's not allow arrogant minds to stereotype that as "unstable".

I stand by my words. Extreme poverty is "unstable". I challenge you to find stability in your life situation on two dollars a day.

[Former Pharaoh]

I stand by my words. Extreme poverty is "unstable". I challenge you to find stability in your life situation on two dollars a day.

When people willingly allow corporations which operate on the idea of an economic system to supply one with necessities, the effect is obvious, poverty. How do those in power stay in power?
Africans appear in poverty because they do not utilize all the "modern" luxuries in sociol cultures. Instead, they utilize Mother Earth which freely gives to all without cost. This is a threat to conglomerate corporations who seek to stay in business. Any lifestyle portaying self sufficiency must not exist for the risk of bearing influence among those that live the corporate culture slave machine. I love that saying in the bible (though I am not religious) where it says "Why would God feed the Sparrow and not fellow man (or something to that extent)"?

I do not challenge myself to find stability on two dollars a day. I challenge myself to find stability utilizing Earth resources. that doesn't mean killing trees and converting them into paper money. It means giving birth to trees and living WITH them. As my friend in Africa is doing. She lives in a hut that is made of plant material which protects her from the severe rainstorms. Tell that to all the businesses that survive on housing developments

[montrealbreaks]

When people willingly allow corporations which operate on the idea of an economic system to supply one with necessities, the effect is obvious, poverty. How do those in power stay in power?
Africans appear in poverty because they do not utilize all the "modern" luxuries in sociol cultures. Instead, they utilize Mother Earth which freely gives to all without cost. This is a threat to conglomerate corporations who seek to stay in business. Any lifestyle portaying self sufficiency must not exist for the risk of bearing influence among those that live the corporate culture slave machine. I love that saying in the bible (though I am not religious) where it says "Why would God feed the Sparrow and not fellow man (or something to that extent)"?

I do not challenge myself to find stability on two dollars a day. I challenge myself to find stability utilizing Earth resources. that doesn't mean killing trees and converting them into paper money. It means giving birth to trees and living WITH them. As my friend in Africa is doing. She lives in a hut that is made of plant material which protects her from the severe rainstorms. Tell that to all the businesses that survive on housing developments

OK, I seem to get my head around what you're saying. You have a point in an ideal scenario. However, the last 200 years of desertification of Africa have rendered more and more of that continent non-arable. Plus, you can't get condoms (for the prevention of AIDS) off of trees. You need money to get get potable water if your well doesn't reach down to the water table anymore due to drought. A society requires an economy to ensure stability in this situation.

I agree that in an ideal world nobody should need an economic system, and that at one point Africans (and all humans in temperate, tropical or semi-tropical environments) could survive without commerce, in an agrarian or maybe hunter-gatherer lifestyle. That is not the case anymore, and admittedly it was a good deal the fault of non-African (European) interference in their history. But population is a major factor too.

To simply say that "oh, they don't need money so just go live in a grass hut like my friend" doesn't cut it anymore. Yes, everybody SHOULD be able to survive like that... But Today, there's WAAAAAYYYY too many human beings on this planet - and within that overpopulation, a disporportionate utilization of resources, resulting in absolute disaster in Africa.

So, back on topic; were the religious fanatics who killed Londoners doing this in order to make the situation in the third world better? NO!!! That's the sick tragedy of this, it's the 21st Century Jihadists who profit most from continuing this poverty and suffering... They acted just when the west is about to start to take African debt relief seriously.

As long as some muslims find appeal in the wahabist / jihadist message, then they're following these bastards to their own graves, and taking some of us (Westerners) with them on occasion.