Look At all those people coming together in Wisconsin!!!!!!!

[scott nathaniel]

Again, waiting for an answer to this:
How come the european countries that have healthier economies than ours, less national debt and the same standard of living are all more "socialist" than us?
Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway etc. Countries with roughly our attitude are at our level, England, Ireland etc.
Russia has an oligarchy very arguably, but no national debt to speak of.

Iceland fired everyone involved in their financial meltdown, and are in great shape. Granted they're a tiny country, but they freaking did it! and remember they were as bad a shape as Greece and Ireland.

Basically we (USA) have a shit government, shit politicians that are bought and paid for by vested interest groups, mainly large multinational corporations that do not give a fuck in the least if the economy collapses, in fact they end up swallowing up other less agile corporations, (bank buyouts after the mortgage crisis anyone?) and getting fatter. But yeah it's the fault of some pithy government worker making a decent wage, yeah that's it.

A large problem is that certain corporations benefit when a company they own fails. We have these large investment firms that own quite a few different companies and their allegiance is strictly to, first, the board, and then the stockholders.
What is disheartening is that the system is not a free market but a manipulated market that, as it stands now, will continue to benefit those with access to, an involvement with, large investment firms, especially in economically miserable times.
Take for instance a company based in Oregon, Harry and David. They have, or I should say had, retail stores nation wide. A few years ago the investment firm that owned it, borrowed against the company's line of credit in the form of cash from which they paid themselves back their initial investment plus interest. They bankrupted the company. During the bankruptcy restructuring, the same investment firm that caused the damage, was given court approval to reinvest cash into the company at a high percentage rate plus they were allowed to collect fees against the company--mind you, they are the investment firm that caused the initial bankruptcy. The firm then claimed they couldn't survive through the restructuring if they had to continue paying the pensions of previous employees. So what does the court do! It shifted the pension liability to a Federal fund. So the company's top brass emerge unscathed, while half or more of the company's low-totem workers were laid off and their pensions are now being paid by the federal government. That is corporate welfare but the rightwingers are concerned that some mythical welfare recipient is going to bankrupt the country by expending his benefits at the titty bar.

[Machinesworking]

A large problem is that certain corporations benefit when a company they own fails. We have these large investment firms that own quite a few different companies and their allegiance is strictly to, first, the board, and then the stockholders.
What is disheartening is that the system is not a free market but a manipulated market that, as it stands now, will continue to benefit those with access to, an involvement with, large investment firms, especially in economically miserable times.
Take for instance a company based in Oregon, Harry and David. They have, or I should say had, retail stores nation wide. A few years ago the investment firm that owned it, borrowed against the company's line of credit in the form of cash from which they paid themselves back their initial investment plus interest. They bankrupted the company. During the bankruptcy restructuring, the same investment firm that caused the damage, was given court approval to reinvest cash into the company at a high percentage rate plus they were allowed to collect fees against the company--mind you, they are the investment firm that caused the initial bankruptcy. The firm then claimed they couldn't survive through the restructuring if they had to continue paying the pensions of previous employees. So what does the court do! It shifted the pension liability to a Federal fund. So the company's top brass emerge unscathed, while half or more of the company's low-totem workers were laid off and their pensions are now being paid by the federal government. That is corporate welfare but the rightwingers are concerned that some mythical welfare recipient is going to bankrupt the country by expending his benefits at the titty bar.

What blows me away is that Mit Romney is one of those guys, that's exactly ho w his firm operated, yet that's what the republicans put up against Obama, the "socialist" who has nearly every time voted in a conservative way.... this country is fucked whoever gets into office, but I don't care to see the kind of brutal downsizing of wages that are already ridiculously downsized that will happen if Mit gets into power. It's also amusing to me that if you go on Facebook or any other media site like youtube there is this campaign by the Mormon church to make Mormons 'normal', "And I'm a Mormon!"
Wonder why this popped up when a prominent mormon is running for office?

[scott nathaniel]

It's also amusing to me that if you go on Facebook or any other media site like youtube there is this campaign by the Mormon church to make Mormons 'normal', "And I'm a Mormon!"
Wonder why this popped up when a prominent mormon is running for office?

It could get worse. Wait until we get a scientologist in office. Instead of an insurance mandate we'll be forced to buy e-meters.

[starving student]

still it was good to see so many wisconsinites come together like that and they weren't disheartened by their loss. I doubt that walker would make it as a vp pick though, he'd probably outshine Romney.

[mech2161]

Again, waiting for an answer to this:
How come the european countries that have healthier economies than ours, less national debt and the same standard of living are all more "socialist" than us?
Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway etc. Countries with roughly our attitude are at our level, England, Ireland etc.
Russia has an oligarchy very arguably, but no national debt to speak of.

Iceland fired everyone involved in their financial meltdown, and are in great shape. Granted they're a tiny country, but they freaking did it! and remember they were as bad a shape as Greece and Ireland.

Basically we (USA) have a shit government, shit politicians that are bought and paid for by vested interest groups, mainly large multinational corporations that do not give a fuck in the least if the economy collapses, in fact they end up swallowing up other less agile corporations, (bank buyouts after the mortgage crisis anyone?) and getting fatter. But yeah it's the fault of some pithy government worker making a decent wage, yeah that's it.

What is the military budget for all of those countries. Probably not as much as the US if you combined them together. How much money do those countries give out to other countries. We can't keep giving and expect to stay on top.

[H20nly]

US aid to pakistan since 911, almost 8 billion,
most of it purely to placate them for performing drone strikes on their sovereign soil,

funny that your government wants to cut spending on the homeland yet keep up the budget for foreign military operations,

you guys are screwed, both "sides" (lol) are firmly in the fuck the citizens lets blow up some brown people camp

this is so true it's disgusting.

... but let me get back to work... there's a Pakistani kid that needs to have my tax money stolen from him by his own government.

[LoopStationZebra]

healthier economies .

No. Perhaps, over various stretches of time, slightly more stabile economies...but even that is a debatable point.

The rate of economic growth in any given decade isn't even remotely close. It's one reason why the middle class in the States has always far outpaced and exceeded that of Europe and the rest of the world. We can also clearly point to any number of stats over 50 years that prove out the notion that your opportunity for economic advancement is far greater in the states as well. If you're lower middle class in France, the likelihood that you'll remain in that bracket is way way way more prevalent than in the US. The same socialist policies that are designed to keep things stabile will wholeheartedly embrace the notion that you don't NEED to rise above your station.



Be happy in your work.

Be happy in your 2 bedroom towerblock flat.

We will take care of you.

Trust Us.

We shall provide.

We shall guarantee your Rights.

Relax.

Be careful.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Thank you.

[LoopStationZebra]

Can we talk about how Obama promised to put on his comfy shoes and walk the picket line whenever collective bargaining rights were threatened, but then essentially just sent a Tweet to Tom Barrett wishing him luck.

[LoopStationZebra]

Then proceeded to order 5 new drone strikes?

omfg.

[Machinesworking]

healthier economies .

No. Perhaps, over various stretches of time, slightly more stabile economies...but even that is a debatable point.

The rate of economic growth in any given decade isn't even remotely close. It's one reason why the middle class in the States has always far outpaced and exceeded that of Europe and the rest of the world. We can also clearly point to any number of stats over 50 years that prove out the notion that your opportunity for economic advancement is far greater in the states as well. If you're lower middle class in France, the likelihood that you'll remain in that bracket is way way way more prevalent than in the US. The same socialist policies that are designed to keep things stabile will wholeheartedly embrace the notion that you don't NEED to rise above your station.



Be happy in your work.

Be happy in your 2 bedroom towerblock flat.

We will take care of you.

Trust Us.

We shall provide.

We shall guarantee your Rights.

Relax.

Be careful.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Thank you.

Disingenuous a bit. You're using France, which is in many ways the most like us in the worst respects; I used them because again they pay less per person for 100% health care than we do for Medicare and they can't possibly be less corrupt..... but let's get back the the big point, the middle class, It's being systematically destroyed in the states yet you're holding it out as if it's in healthy shape?? We all know the problems you get from a regulated economy, but the basic problem with an unregulated economy seems to be ignored in discussions like this.
What exactly constitutes middle class to you? To me it's management positions, skilled trade, super small businesses etc. It's not just dentists and
firemen etc. The lower middle class is being destroyed. Well you just spent the first part of this thread doing the whole OMFG! routine about how people in government and union positions were making the absolutely outrageous amount of 60k a year. I don't know about your area, but where I live 60k a year is the bare minimum to live an ultra moderate lower middle class existence at best. Plus you know as well as I do that the middle class is the most threatened of the classes, specifically the skilled trade, small business sector is being wiped out by what I see as a twofold attack on the value of the work produced, IE 'we can hire more desperate people than you, so screw your union, and we'll deregulate the business sector to the point to where large companies get the lions share of the the breaks and your business doesn't qualify. This has been going on for years, and I agree it's a non partisan attack for sure, but the answer isn't less regulations.
The destruction of healthy stable companies by corporate raiders in the 80's wasn't some sort of amazing thing because some people got rich, a lot of working class people were thrown into the poverty level, but hey, some moderately rich people became super rich.. In fact every time we've had deregulation we've eventually experienced a recession based on that destabilizing, but that gets ignored because it doesn't fit into this cookie cutter idea that the government is the enemy. IMO it's always been a combination of big business and the government that have made things at times worse for the US, it's not the government here calling the shots though, and to act like if we elect people who want a more regulated economy we will end up in Stalinist Russia is silly, as silly as calling Bush Hitler etc.

Also, as a working class person who comes from a very poor background I could give two flying fucks about whether or not some higher percentage of middle class people get rich here. For one I'm quite aware that the trend is downward, not upward, and that the US class movement statistics are less than 5%. Here's the clincher though, a working poor person in Europe is in 100% better shape than I am, and that's because they actually care about having a middle and lower middle class, while this country seems to admire dog eat dog at all costs because otherwise SOCIALISM!

^ Which the rest of the world from what I can gather is confused by, rightly so. There really aren't too many ways to run an economy, you either let it go hog wild free, regulate it a bit, or constrain it completely. Only hog wild free is without any socialist elements, and if you think people are going to act in everyone's best interests with absolutely no constraints then you have a more doe eyed view of humanity than you should.

TL;DR The lower middle class and the working class is in 100% better shape in europe than here. Pretending that socialistic ideas lead to 1984 is essentially silly at best, at worst it's a distraction from the fact that as it stands the working and middle class in the USA have suffered immensely from deregulation, not regulation!

PS, Here's one for you, explain how this is OK will you? The government has handed over running of prisons to the private sector. So now groups of private investors have been created that have more than a vested interest in there being a larger prison population, so consequentially we will see stricter and stricter laws being advocated by the politicians they buy. So, private run prisons is a very non-socialist concept, and being able to sway elected officials is as well. But hey, both of those problems IMO are systematically ignored by people wanting less government regulations...

[starving student]

one party shoots the messenger, the other party shoots the message,you're gonna have to guess which oh shit that's not gonna work cause one party actually does sometimes shoot the messenger