OT:Hold all Muslims responsible; London, Bali, Madrid, 911?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.

Take responsibility for rogue members?

Muslims in general should rise up and cure their society
30
43%
Muslims have no responsibilty to manage the tiny minority of crazy muslims
40
57%
 
Total votes: 70

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:38 pm

12micsn1 wrote:Why dont the Arab leaders of the world denouce terrorism? All this violence coming from the Arab world an we never hear Arab leaders say what needs to be said about all of this evil taking place upon us. Are the people of the west all considered infidels?
They do denounce it. Everyone condemns this. Even the Iranians have condemned it. It just doesn't reach us out here in Europe and America... for some reason...

And maybe you've been brainwashed too?

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:48 pm

Astral Fridge Magnet et al, all I can say is you should probably read a different translation of the Qur'an and maybe study the commentary (tafsir) relating to the historical context and traditional interpretations of it.

First of all, there are quite a few English translations of the qur'an that have been made with the specific political purpose of making Islam look bad.

As for the importance of the tafsir -

"Scripture is a holy place; and we need to calm ourselves before entering it. If we march in, hearts blazing with fury, viewing the world with suspiciousness about the divine intention, then we violate that holy place. In earlier times, only the pure of heart, and those with decades of humbling scholarship behind them, were allowed to cross the threshhold into that space. Now the doors have been kicked open, and a crowd of furious, hungry, desperate men, stands quarrelling around the text."

(Abdal-Hakim Murad)

I think the problem is, to be honest, that quite a number of these radicals are reading the Qur'an like you are!

Sheikh Abdal-Hakim is a very wise man, and well educated too (he studied at Cambridge and al-Azhar and teaches at Cambridge). I can't recommed enough that you all read his essays:

Bin Laden's Violence Is A Heresy Against Islam
Recapturing Islam From The Terrorists
The Poverty Of Fanaticism

-Paws

braj
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Post by braj » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:10 pm

noisetonepause wrote: there are quite a few English translations of the qur'an that have been made with the specific political purpose of making Islam look bad.
No doubt.

Somewhat O/T, some of the most beautiful stuff I've ever heard has been Sufi poetry. Islam has many beautiful aspects and anyone who thinks it is all about terrorism and hatred is really doing it a massive injustice.

anonymouse
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Post by anonymouse » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:40 pm

dunno about you, but reading the thoughts n feelings of people on this thread is like taking a deep breath and breathing out slowly.

you may try to predict/assume the opinion of other people, let alone assume already you know the only "right way". but it is an education to take onboard the reasoned beliefs of others, and reconsider your own pre-baked opinions.

conny
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Post by conny » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:42 pm

braj wrote:http://bluemoose.greatnow.com/Live/Tunes/BW.mp3 Islam has many beautiful aspects and anyone who thinks it is all about terrorism and hatred is really doing it a massive injustice.
Right.

http://bluemoose.greatnow.com/Live/Tunes/BW.mp3

// C
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Bleeps and Blops!
http://bluemoose.greatnow.com/

Hypomixolydian
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Post by Hypomixolydian » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:09 am

noisetonepause wrote:Astral Fridge Magnet et al,

I think the problem is, to be honest, that quite a number of these radicals are reading the Qur'an like you are!

Paws

Well, as I said in previous posts, it's people who distort religious texts to justify their actions which are the problem.

To quote myself:

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote: Its the fundamentalists who are taking it literally and out of context and are responsible for the chaos and turmoil we are facing these days. Not peace loving muslims.

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:
Perhaps it's true that I am a bit less tolerant of people who distort religious text to justify their actions.

Plus, as I also said in a previous post, I would like to bow out of this debate. I quote myself again:
Astral Fridge Magnet wrote: I really don't have any intentions whatsoever to annoy, upset or incite bad feelings on anyone. I just like a good debate (as long as it remains civil).
But, I am going to bow out of this debate. One reason is I take your point Machinesworking and also because this is so time consuming!!

So again my apologies if I have annoyed anyone!!!

That's all folks for me on this subject.

noisetonepause
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Post by noisetonepause » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:18 am

Soz, mate, I missed that bit!

I wasn't really having a go just trying to clear up misconceptions :)

Hypomixolydian
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Post by Hypomixolydian » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:22 am

noisetonepause wrote:Soz, mate, I missed that bit!

I wasn't really having a go just trying to clear up misconceptions :)

No worries sport!!

Burt
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Post by Burt » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:55 am

1) The technological sectors need to focus on developing an affordable, clean, renewable replacement for gasoline
it already exists - ethanol... they use it in Brazil (clean and made from renewable sugar cane)...
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Livewire
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Post by Livewire » Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:31 am

http://www.archives2004.ghazali.net/htm ... ounce.html


Call it a battle for hearts and minds.

A growing number of American Muslim leaders are publicly denouncing the violence committed by religious extremists and are trying to take control of defining their faith. Through news releases, public forums and petitions, Muslim groups in Minnesota and across the country have gone on record condemning the recent beheadings of Americans Nick Berg and Paul M. Johnson Jr. and South Korean Kim Sun-il.

"We wish to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent," read a statement by the Twin Cities-based Islamic Resource Group on the day news broke of Johnson's murder.

Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have signed an online petition condemning terrorist acts since it was posted last month by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a national Muslim civil rights group in Washington, D.C.

The public denunciations are part of a broader effort to show Americans that the masked individuals who spew hateful rhetoric in grisly videotape messages do not represent the majority of the 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide.

"A lot of people now are realizing that taking a passive stance is not a good stance," said Hesham Hussein, president of the Muslim American Society's Minnesota chapter. "We have to speak out and we have to let people know who we are and not let others define who we are."

His organization has sent letters of condolence to the families of the slain kidnap victims and has called on religious leaders in the mosques to clearly address the issue. "We cannot and must not be silent about this deviant conduct," a statement from the Muslim American Society says.

Since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Muslim leaders have faced criticism that they have not expressed sufficient outrage about violence committed by Islamic radicals, leaving an impression that perhaps some Muslims tacitly support such behavior. Hussein and other Muslim leaders insist that they have made their objections known but that their words often do not reach the masses.

"There is a clear outrage and clear speaking out against it. The problem is there is a buffer between us and the general public," he said. "The media chooses which part to show and which part to highlight. Unfortunately, showing a crime is very attractive but showing the response to the crime is not so attractive. We have not been silent."

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