MAJOR sync issues with plug-ins in Live 8!

[theextravaganttraveller]

Perhaps I'm not understanding something, but Live's plug-in buffer setting "as audio buffer" appears to completely screw with plug-in sync.

Here's a quick test:

1) Fire up Battery or any other drum sampler
2) Lay down a simple pattern
3) Flip Live's main audio buffer to 2048 or as high as yours will go
4) Set plug-in buffer size to "as audio buffer"
5) Turn on your click and play the sequence
6) Observe MAJOR sync issue!

EDIT: video here - http://youtu.be/1ZmIYrGnz6A?hd=1

Even when working with a smaller main buffer setting, your plugins will still run with latency... Only remedy is to keep plug-in buffer at 32 samples, which of course takes a major hit on CPU!

Can someone else please confirm this? ..I do like wonky beats, but DAMN, ABLETON!!

Setup: iMac i5, 10.6.8, Saffire Pro 40 (MixControl 3.0), TI chipset, Live 8.3.3, Battery 3.2.3

[theextravaganttraveller]

Check.. Check.. Is this thing on? Can anyone else give this a quick try?

[theextravaganttraveller]

Bump! What the dilly gents? Can noone confirm / deny this? Am I completely wrong to assume that Live should not be introducing additional latency to plug-in processing if prefs are set to "same as audio buffer"? In effect this means that no plug-ins are ever in exact sync with Ableton timeline (even if you set plug-in buffer to 32 samples).

I prefer not to try to chase Ableton support over this, those dudes never respond. I hope at least they're out drinkin or something.

[H20nly]

maybe this will help:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=160107&hilit=+PDC




P.S. some users\posters may be avoiding this topic like the plague. it's an argument and/or bitch fest waiting to happen depending on moods, implications, accusations, and blame placing... all of which depend on the time of the month. definitely a lunar cycle, much like other more bloody cycles that tend to follow the moon.

[Tone Deft]

maybe this will help:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=160107&hilit=+PDC




P.S. some users\posters may be avoiding this topic like the plague. it's an argument and/or bitch fest waiting to happen depending on moods, implications, accusations, and blame placing... all of which depend on the time of the month. definitely a lunar cycle, much like other more bloody cycles that tend to follow the moon.

I don't think that's what he's experiencing. seems like changing the buffer sizes during a project is screwing things up.

[theextravaganttraveller]

Thanks for replies, gents. Interesting read on PDC but that's not what I'm experiencing. What I am experiencing is added latency at ANY plug-in buffer setting. The example above uses only a single plug-in, and no other Live devices or automation.

So for example, let's assume I've set my main audio buffer to 2048 and turned on my click:

1) if I set my plug-in buffer to "as audio buffer", plug-in will play 2048 samples out of sync (behind) the timeline.

2) if I set my plug-in buffer to an aggressive setting, like 64 samples, sync will certainly be much better but plugin will still run 64 samples behind the timeline. Of course with multiple plugins this also takes a major hit on CPU so not a good long-term solution...

Does this make sense?

The strange thing is that I've just tested on PC (Live 8.2.1, Saffire PRO24) and I am not seeing this issue, even when I use ridiculously high plug-in buffer settings like 8192 samples. Plugins remain in sync with timeline / click as expected... So this must be a Mac or system specific issue.

Can any Mac users have a poke at this, per the quick test instructions in original post? Danke!

EDIT: I should also add that changing these settings mid-project does not appear to be the factor. Even if I close the session and reopen, the sync issue is still there.

[Tone Deft]

to be clear, you're not experiencing system latency. the hardware problem that when you play a VST from an external keyboard there's a delay between you hitting the keyboard key and Live playing a sound.

to boil down what you wrote:
- make a midi clip
- have it play a VST
- it's in time with the metronome
- change the buffer size, it's out of time with the metronome

you can do this two ways:
- start with a high buffer size
- do the above steps, go to a low buffer size
AND
- start with a low buffer size
- do the above steps, go to a high buffer size

stuck at work, don't have Live with me.

[theextravaganttraveller]

Thanks, ToneDeft. Correct - I'm not referring to system latency when using external input.

I also don't think this issue has to do with changing buffer sizes during a session. No matter what buffer settings I start with / change to, plugins are always offset by the plug-in audio buffer amount (most obvious with high buffers, of course). I would expect that Live should compensate for this under the hood, and this does appear to be the case on the PC here at work. Not on my Mac however.

Let me know if you get a chance to test on your end, much appreciate it!

[Tone Deft]

it would be great if someone at Ableton could chime in on the details of the audio buffer vs the other buffer (I'm spacing out on the name and I'm at work so my head's in work mode, not Live detail mode.)

[H20nly]

ah! sorry for my misinterpretation.

the fact that it doesn't happen on your PC leaves a great deal of hope (assuming you are working with the same plugs and source material)... what about your audio input drivers? is there one you can roll back to... or better yet (from a troubleshooting perspective) can you use a generic or third party driver?

[theextravaganttraveller]

Thanks, H20. Yes, on both systems I started with a blank session and an instance of Battery (3.2.3). Also tried other plugs to eliminate Battery as the source of the problem - same results with those.

PC specs:
- Win XP
- Saffire PRO24 (MixControl 2.4)

Mac specs:
- 10.6.8
- Saffire PRO40 (had started noticing this issue with older drivers and still present with latest MixControl 3.0 update)
- 99% certain that this issue was also present when bypassing the Saffire and using Built-in Audio; not at home but will confirm this evening

[H20nly]

maybe you're looking in the wrong place... what about simple hard ware issues like a bad cable or bad USB or Firwire port... have you tried testing those?

[Tone Deft]

I think the real question is much simpler.


have you checked funken's web site for a solution??

[Palmer Eldritch]

Hi theextravaganttraveller,

are you sure the option (in the option menu) "latency compensation" is checkmarked on your MAC.

cheers, palmer

[theextravaganttraveller]

Hi Palmer,

I'm unaware of a "latency compensation" checkbox in Live's preferences. Are you referring to the Driver Error Compensation slider in Preferences / Audio? My understanding of this setting is that it is intended for compensating latency when tracking, such that recorded tracks are automatically shifted over on the timeline by the driver latency amount. Am i missing something?

The issue I'm having does not appear to be related to a quantifiable hardware latency. Instead, plugins are out of sync with the timeline / click by the plugin buffer setting specified in preferences.