APC40 v.s PUSH

[JuanSOLO]

I'm still puzzled by what you think PUSH is missing in step automation.
for example
your step sequencing a beat, maybe the snare, on 1 snare hit you want reverb, enable "automation" turn the reverb knob on that hit.

thats pretty much it, never had to leave the drumpad mode, sequence mode, or engadge any other mode like you would in Maschine or and APC40 or Launchpad etc.

[humnumb]

I'm still puzzled by what you think PUSH is missing in step automation.
for example
your step sequencing a beat, maybe the snare, on 1 snare hit you want reverb, enable "automation" turn the reverb knob on that hit.

thats pretty much it, never had to leave the drumpad mode, sequence mode, or engadge any other mode like you would in Maschine or and APC40 or Launchpad etc.

Are you sure you understand what is meant by "step automation"? It's not at all the same as turning a knob and recording that movement (even though it's great that Live 9 will finally be able to record that into clips, which is something Maschine has always been able to do). Ableton has already admitted here that Push can't do step automation.

Step automation, also known as 'step parameter lock' in Elektron-speak, allows you to make precise automation to individual steps, like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdJh4FMNhNE&t=05m20s

[JuanSOLO]

I know exactly what it is.
Yet it's just slightly different than recording automation they way I described with PUSH, granted step automation is very precise/specific.
I'm trying to tell you something like that CAN be added, and most certainly someone will by remote scripting, if not Ableton.
And I'm pretty sure scripts like that will be available for download on the web.

PUSH, Maschine and all of those controllers only do what they do "out of the box" based on the coding.
I may not be able to modify the code, you may not be able to, but others are proficient at it and more times than not, generous.

based on that, I dont see it as a missing feature.

[humnumb]

I know exactly what it is.
Yet it's just slightly different than recording automation they way I described with PUSH, granted step automation is very precise/specific.
I'm trying to tell you something like that CAN be added, and most certainly someone will by remote scripting, if not Ableton.
And I'm pretty sure scripts like that will be available for download on the web.

PUSH, Maschine and all of those controllers only do what they do "out of the box" based on the coding.
I may not be able to modify the code, you may not be able to, but others are proficient at it and more times than not, generous.

based on that, I dont see it as a missing feature.

Wow. You do realize you're talking about non-existing hacks that theoretically "CAN be added" that "someone" could make that you're pretty sure "will be available for download on the web", right?

Well then, why bother discussing missing features in any gear at all when we can just speculate on what could possibly be added by someone in the indefinite future?

[OzWozEre]

Theoreticals aside I think we shouldn't underestimate what having M4L will mean for Live once it becomes more pervasive -- this gets to the heart of Abe's decision to bundle M4L in Live 9 for free -- it's strategic.

Can you imagine what kind of ecosystem that could grow? Think App Store for iPhone, App Store for Shopify etc... an App Store for Live! =D

There is a very fine line (or should I say large overlap?) between designers/programmers/producers when it comes to Ableton. It's very "hacker friendly" IMO, I think we will see alot of interesting developments in this area -- I know I will be thinking of programming with it for example...

So yeah, there maybe some features that might not be baked in on the "factory level", but we have an opportunity to get *alot* more out of it as time progresses == WIN IMO.

[humnumb]

Theoreticals aside I think we shouldn't underestimate what having M4L will mean for Live once it becomes more pervasive -- this gets to the heart of Abe's decision to bundle M4L in Live 9 for free -- it's strategic.

M4L is not bundled in Live 9 for free. It's only included as part of Live 9 Suite, which costs extra.

So yeah, there maybe some features that might not be baked in on the "factory level", but we have an opportunity to get *alot* more out of it as time progresses == WIN IMO.

Like I was saying, you can say that about most other tools that are missing certain features, and opportunities for theoretical possibilities without anything else to support it does not in any way mean that it can or will happen.

[OzWozEre]

M4L is not bundled in Live 9 for free. It's only included as part of Live 9 Suite, which costs extra.

Sure, I meant Suite -- what a difference a word makes

Like I was saying, you can say that about most other tools that are missing certain features, and opportunities for theoretical possibilities without anything else to support it does not in any way mean that it can or will happen.

Sure, but "most other tools" don't have *any* option for any "theoretical possibilities" whatsoever, I think that's the difference

[humnumb]

Like I was saying, you can say that about most other tools that are missing certain features, and opportunities for theoretical possibilities without anything else to support it does not in any way mean that it can or will happen.

Sure, but "most other tools" don't have *any* option for any "theoretical possibilities" whatsoever, I think that's the difference

Have your heard of the lua-based tools for Renoise? Do you know about controller templates that utilize scripts and Lemur patches for Maschine? Those are not theoretical. They already exist.

[deva]

I know exactly what it is.
Yet it's just slightly different than recording automation they way I described with PUSH, granted step automation is very precise/specific.
I'm trying to tell you something like that CAN be added, and most certainly someone will by remote scripting, if not Ableton.
And I'm pretty sure scripts like that will be available for download on the web.

PUSH, Maschine and all of those controllers only do what they do "out of the box" based on the coding.
I may not be able to modify the code, you may not be able to, but others are proficient at it and more times than not, generous.

based on that, I dont see it as a missing feature.

All that may not be necessary... Step automation is just low resolution automation (like drawing in Live with the grid turned on)

Step automation is limited and useful for drums, not so much for melodies and continuous sounds...

[OzWozEre]

Have your heard of the lua-based tools for Renoise? Do you know about controller templates that utilize scripts and Lemur patches for Maschine? Those are not theoretical. They already exist.

Haha! I see what you did there

[delicioso]

Step automation is limited and useful for drums, not so much for melodies and continuous sounds...

Not at all. It's incredibly useful for any kind of automation that requires precision which is not limited to just drums. If you're familar with multi-effects step sequencer like The Finger or Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Maschine's built-in step sequencer allows you to do exactly that "out of the box" with both native sampler/effects, or third party plugins.

[deva]

Step automation is limited and useful for drums, not so much for melodies and continuous sounds...

Not at all. It's incredibly useful for any kind of automation that requires precision which is not limited to just drums. If you're familar with multi-effects step sequencer like The Finger or Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Maschine's built-in step sequencer allows you to do exactly that "out of the box" with both native sampler/effects, or third party plugins.

It is not precise, it is crude... it is low resolution and only moves in discrete steps which can be heard as stepping... if you want a smooth parameter adjustment, no can do... if you want to make a parameter adjustment not on the step beat, no can do...

[delicioso]

Step automation is limited and useful for drums, not so much for melodies and continuous sounds...

Not at all. It's incredibly useful for any kind of automation that requires precision which is not limited to just drums. If you're familar with multi-effects step sequencer like The Finger or Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Maschine's built-in step sequencer allows you to do exactly that "out of the box" with both native sampler/effects, or third party plugins.

It is not precise, it is crude... it is low resolution and only moves in discrete steps which can be heard as stepping... if you want a smooth parameter adjustment, no can do... if you want to make a parameter adjustment not on the step beat, no can do...

Huh? You do realize that Maschine has always had the ability to record automation into clips, which Live still can't do (until Live 9 is released), which is all about smooth parameter adjustments and has nothing to do with step automation, right?

And you didn't get what I meant by 'precise' regarding step automation. It's about automating the step(s) of a pattern when you know precisely which steps (along any musical divisions of the sequencer's grid) you want to automate. So yes, it's about using "discrete steps" which is why it's called step automation and it has its uses and advantages over recording knob movements (which Live can't even do). So for example, you hold a pad representing the step you want to automate and tweak a knob to apply automation to the desired step(s). It's funny you say "low resolution" which makes it obvious that you're not that familar with Maschine. The Maschine hardware has a much higher-than-MIDI resolution (even higher than Kore's higher-than-MIDI resolution) regardless of whether you're recording knob tweaks over a continuous source or applying it to a step.

[deva]

Not at all. It's incredibly useful for any kind of automation that requires precision which is not limited to just drums. If you're familar with multi-effects step sequencer like The Finger or Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Maschine's built-in step sequencer allows you to do exactly that "out of the box" with both native sampler/effects, or third party plugins.

It is not precise, it is crude... it is low resolution and only moves in discrete steps which can be heard as stepping... if you want a smooth parameter adjustment, no can do... if you want to make a parameter adjustment not on the step beat, no can do...

Huh? You do realize that Maschine has always had the ability to record automation into clips, which Live still can't do (until Live 9 is released), which is all about smooth parameter adjustments and has nothing to do with step automation, right?

And you didn't get what I meant by 'precise' regarding step automation. It's about automating the step(s) of a pattern when you know precisely which steps (along any musical divisions of the sequencer's grid) you want to automate. So yes, it's about using "discrete steps" which is why it's called step automation and it has its uses and advantages over recording knob movements (which Live can't even do). So for example, you hold a pad representing the step you want to automate and tweak a knob to apply automation to the desired step(s). It's funny you say "low resolution" which makes it obvious that you're not that familar with Maschine. The Maschine hardware has a much higher-than-MIDI resolution (even higher than Kore's higher-than-MIDI resolution) regardless of whether you're recording knob tweaks over a continuous source or applying it to a step.

I agree step automation has its uses... and it is also quite limited as I described... if you do a lot of quantized step sequencing and don't play by hand in realtime, that will skew how much you value one over the other... personally, I don't find step automation very important. Most of the time I want smooth parameter adjustment. And of course, smooth parameter adjustment can be stepped just like step automation.

[krizgainz]

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