Why Dont You People Spread The NEW MESSAGE!!!

[New]

I rarely if ever participate in amateur political discussion like the thread posted below this one entitled ´Spread The Message´

However, that particular thread consisted of mostly anti liberation of Iraq stances. I say the following to you people who would still have Iraq controlled by the worlds cruelest and most oppressive regimes the following.

The Iraq regime for 35 years systematically dismantled every single Human right for every Iraq Citizen No More

The Iraq regime has murdered 200,000 of its citizens during its reign. No More

The Iraq Regime for 35 years routinely tortured and raped, and jailed its citizens as easily as you and I would switch the TV channel. No More

No More women accused of adultery be dragged from her home into the street and decapitated right there and then while her children and neighbours are forced to watch.

[/b]No More Innocent people which includes women and children will be either tortured or murdered because a family member (and this could even be a distant cousin) tried to leave the country or has said something against the regime.

No More Sanctions for the Iraqi people

As I sit here right now watching the Jubilation on the streets of Baghdad as the Statue of Saddam Hussein is torn down I cannot agree that this conflict was not nescassary. It, in fact should have happened in 1991. Better late than never. How can some of you people who sit in their comfortable homes, watching TV, playing Music, writing music, and so much more that we all take for granted NOW say this ´Coalition Effort´ was a mistake. Please Explain what is wrong about liberating a people from the worlds cruelest and most oppressive regime???????????? Regardless of what you beleive the REAL motives are.

Yes people have died. In a war people die. They always have and always will. Still, the efforts of the Coalition forces have been quite remarkable in minimising the casualties on both sides. Do any of you believe that Saddam would have been as careful if he had come knocking on your city?

Was this war only about oil? NO. There is no doubt that Saddams oil is a factor, but it most certainly was not the main one. Let us not forget WE all need access to Iraqs oil, even Germany and France!. If the US had only wanted Iraqa oil there would have been far easier ways to get at it. EG, why not just capture the oil fields.............and leave it at that. Well, I for one am very glad the Coalition forces went all the way.

Now the German and French Governments want the UN to come in NOW and restructure the country. Rubbish. This is merely sour grapes because BOTH of these countries now realise that not backing this conflict was and will be a big mistake financially for them in teh future. I for one would not want the UN in Iraq restructuring the country because quite frankly the UN is a waste of time. It cant hold Afghanistan together and failed miserably in Bosnia. Why on earth would Germany and France want to see the UN completely fail in Iraq??. Answer: Becuase quite simply they would like to see Iraq struggle immensely so that they could say ´´We told you so´´............

Last year German firms done business with Iraq to the tune of 850 million dollars, the year before it was over 1 billion. France last year did business to the tune of over 1 billion. Isnt it easy to understand NOW why these countries were not members of the coalition.

Let us not forget that both the German and French Governments told Saddam that there would be no invasion as they would Veto this in the united nations. It was those 2 countries that have destroyed the UN Their Veto means nothing to the US and rtightly so in my opinion.

If Germany and France had their way Iraqs people would still be tortured and murdered today. What on earth is good about that. Lets not forget the only way to
[/b]Completely Remove A Regime is by FORCE. This has always been the way. Sanctions cannot, and didnt remove Saddam. That monster let thousands of his own people die because of sanctions..........OH, thats right that was the US´s fault. NO, NO, NO. If there were no sanctions Saddam would have had Nukes by this time and thats 100% guaranteed, and he would have replenished his army and airforce to pre 1991 status and would have probably done a lot more. The very fact of sanctions kept Saddams military force at bay.

Of course the sanctions had a horrible effect on Iraqi people. Well, dont blame the US. Who do you think would have still been advocating sanctions here today? Do you need 3 guesses...... And those very same countries would have still been advocating sanctions tomorrow, next week, next month, netx year, and the next decade because thats where their interest lay, not peace. Every government has an agenda, and the anti conflict brigade are no different. If you beleive otherwise then you are only fooling yourself

Sanctions Did Not WorkHow many people in Iraq neeeded to die because many were to scared to take direct action. Thankfully no more.

At the end of the day regardless of what you beleive the US motives were no one can say that an Iraqi citizen will not be better off. And that for me was the whole point of this conflict. I couldnt care less about oil. As long as I have enough to keep my car going Im happy

Its really quite strange, even today there are demonstrations for the instant removal of coalition forces. What? and turn the country in to one large killing field and chaos because thats exactly what would happen I say the US should stay there until the first elections have taken place.

I beleive a music software forum is no place for discussions like this as there are far more forums suitable for this, But seeing as Ableton took part then I say fine as long as I can post then. Oh and try doing that in Iraq in the past

Of course its going to take many years before Iraq is fully on its feet again, but at least the people will be free and will be treated like human beings. And of course now that the US has pretty much taken control of the whole country the Anti liberation brigade will now turn their attention on to all the conspiracy theories regarding the US motives. Even when the US moves out of Iraq these people will simply claim that the US is running the country in secret. RUBBISH!!.


I actually have some faith in some politicians. NOT everyone is a greedy warmongering, exapansionist. The US, and the UK have taken a lot of abuse largely unfounded from the Anti liberation brigade. I say to all of you anti Lib brigade that in time you will see that what they done was the only, and right thing to do. The US and the UK have a point to make and they will definitely make their point when they leave Iraq to be run by the Iraqi people. I for one cant wait when I see the abstainers faces fully covered with Egg............

I implore many of you to read and learn from as many sources as you can find. Read all points of view regarding this conflict, and also what Saddams regime really got up to. In particular pay attention to Asian press that you can find on line. Educate yourselves as to why this conflict needed to happen. And yes, I do suspect that Syria could be next on the list. For the moment I am undecided, but from the little I have read their human rights record is on a par with the Saddam regime. Im not saying I agree or disagree yet. I need to educate myself first.

Long Live Iraq And Its people

[quandry]

Amen. If it was all about money and oil, why would we spend 80+ billion dollars on it--that would be a jackass invetment by any standards. Clearly it is about more than the bottom line, and people here in the USA that simplify it like that and have such vigilant anti-war stances should get out and travel sometime, and see what an amazing society we live in, and how free we really are. It is way to easy in our cozy isolation here in north america to forget how hard and brutal some areas of the world really are, and that people have to live under horrible conditions day in and day out, while we do as we please, and then criticize our own governments foreign policies without considering the ordinary everyday people in the country we are trying to help. From all I've seen and heard, the Iraqis are pretty stoked to see Saddam go--whatever you want to say about the coalition, at least the new regime will be better than Saddam, its hard to argue against that.

[Alex]

Hi new,

just as a short addition. I'm really wondering about all these "things" France & Germany had done or want to do. Sounds like the european "gang". If I read your posting it seems as would the whole world fought and fight against S. Hussein beside Germany & France. Really funny.

I'mean we all know that all big industry states have done business with or in Iraq. A lot of weapons from Russia, USA (with Rumsfeld himself as the transactor), France, Germany,... Some nuclear technologies from Germany, some poison gas technology from USA and Russia, a lot of money from Kuwait & Saudi Arabia,...

Not to forget my loved oil company called "Haliburton" (where Dick Cheney was CEO before he became vice president of the USA) which did a lot of business with the Iraq.

When you say "cruelest and most oppressive regimes...", how do you measure? In dead bodies? For some days the UN annouced that about 3.3 million people died directly and indirectly because of the war in Congo inside the last 4 years. It was never an issue for the big media. Not here in Germany or Europe and also not in the USA. But I'm sure that Congo is already of Paul D. Wolfowitz's list.

Please Explain what is wrong about liberating a people from the worlds cruelest and most oppressive regime????????????

I think this is the wrong question. The right one is: How much is the price?

So what about the dead iraqi civilian? You could ask their families if the liberation was it worth.
What about the soldiers on both fronts? You could ask their families too.
What about the reputation of the USA in the world and especially in the near east?
What about the billions of dollar needed for the war. You could ask mainly poorer people in the USA if it was it worth.

But altough I made this posting here I think this is not the right place to do it. Basically I thinks it's in general hard to discuss by writing.

regards,
Alex

[harb]

Alex wrote:

"But altough I made this posting here I think this is not the right place to do it. Basically I thinks it's in general hard to discuss by writing."


I agree completely. I think we should start a video conferencing-debate forum to really discuss the issues and feeling/opinions of all peoples - an absolute open democracy.....

nasty politicians


harb

[New]

Hi alex,

Hi new,

just as a short addition. I'm really wondering about all these "things" France & Germany had done or want to do. Sounds like the european "gang". If I read your posting it seems as would the whole world fought and fight against S. Hussein beside Germany & France. Really funny.

No, you seem to think I have singled out France and Germany for no good reason. France and Germanys vote was very important. Always has been (not anymore mind you) But the fact remains that those 2 countries more than any others were doing business with Iraq despite Sanctions. So their interest lay in keeping the coffers of those German and French governments companies lined. There is no secret that German and French companies were doing business with Iraq. And yes, I´m glad you do know that Germany sold Hi Tec information to Saddam and these were for the sole purpose of eventually manufacturering Nuclear weapons. France did the exact same thing. Doesnt it seem obvious to you that the governments of both these countries had other agendas. I´m not anti German or French by a long shot, but SURELY you people and the french people can see the disastourous consequences of a dictator ship and there is only one way to dismantle oppresive regimes. As for Russia I know they were dong business with Iraq, but not on teh scale of Germany and France. Also you shouldnt forget that Russia quite simply couldnt afford to join the coalition and the country itself has many internal problems. Lets also face the fact that Russia is a nuclear power. get the picture?

[/quote]I'mean we all know that all big industry states have done business with or in Iraq. A lot of weapons from Russia, USA (with Rumsfeld himself as the transactor), France, Germany,... Some nuclear technologies from Germany, some poison gas technology from USA and Russia, a lot of money from Kuwait & Saudi Arabia,...

USA has not done business with Iraq for nearly 15 years. You talk of the past and I agree the US pretty much armed Iraq for the conflict with Iran. But still you talk of the past and fail to see the situation now. Rumsfield had dineer with Saddam in 1983. Big deal. The US, UK still do business with oppressive regimes and its wrong but the world is a complicated mindfield of politics and you have to take the whole picture in to consideration. Arguments like yours are always based on conspiracy theories Im afraid and with little knowledge of the real facts. No offence intented.

Not to forget my loved oil company called "Haliburton" (where Dick Cheney was CEO before he became vice president of the USA) which did a lot of business with the Iraq.

I see you like to bring upi the past. Again you say well he did that so its OK for us to do this, or DO NOTHING. All countries do business with other countries regardless of the regime, or government. If it suits a countries interests to do business with an oppressive regime at a certain point in time they will. However that doesnt last forver as teh UK and the US stopped doing business with Iraq many years ago. Of course some companies from both of these countries did business with Iraq even though it was forbidden. Basically not every single country in the US or the UK can be controlled, but lets not forget that the governments of France and Germany knew very well that many companies were doing business with Iraq, Its Illegal in teh US and the UK (was Illegal) but not so in Germany or France. Hmmmm, makes one think eh?

When you say "cruelest and most oppressive regimes...", how do you measure? In dead bodies? For some days the UN annouced that about 3.3 million people died directly and indirectly because of the war in Congo inside the last 4 years. It was never an issue for the big media. Not here in Germany or Europe and also not in the USA. But I'm sure that Congo is already of Paul D. Wolfowitz's list.

OK, so now your argument is what about all the other oppresive regimes in the world. When will they be take out. Soon I hope Alex. Do you expect the US to just go charging in to every other country then?. Lets be realistic for a moment. Even though the US is the only Superpower in the world today they CANT and WONT go charging in to any country that they wish for many reasons which are to mcuh to go in to here. One step at a time my freind. IF Iraq was the world superpower do you beleive he would have stopped at Kuwait. NO, that man if given the chance would have taken over the whole of the middle east, and THEN he would have been on his way to YOUR country. Is that what you would have wanted. Impossible???, Not with Nukes, and I recall one of your former regimes were definitely seeting their sights on European, Middle East, African, and far east domination. Dictators dont stop, they only get killed eventually either by their own people, or by another countriues military. Its always been like that. Power corriupts absaloute Alex...........

YES Alex, that is how one measures a cruel and oppressive regime DEAD BODIES, Torture, Missing Citizens, a country where a law was passed in 2001 forbidding women to work, and all females forbidden to read, or even learn to read. A country where on every street there was an unwilling informer. This could be a family memeber even. If they didnt inform they and possibly some of their family would be killed. A regime where they have people watching one group of people and another group watching the people watch the other people for possible dissent. A country where the media is completely controlled by the regime. Where the only music allowed has to be endorsed by the Baath party. A country that has no human rights whatsoever. A country where at any time the regime can throw you and your family out of your home for no reason whatsovere and anyone that helps you will be jailed or executed most likely. A country that after the Iran war forbid widows to get any help from the state whatsover, which also meant that neother family or friends were allowed to help. These women were also forbidden to work, thuse many of these women are forced to beeg, eat of the streets etc. You must think I have made all this up. Then READ and educate yourself. IF you for one second beleive the Saddam regime were a nice bunch then you are most definitely kidding yourself. Have you seen the torture chambers??, compare that with Saddams palaces. Have you seen how ordinary Iraqia live? Again compare that with how saddam lives. There is no doubt that regime is the most cruel and oppresive regime on the planet today. Nobody seems to dispute this except the anti liberation brigade. Even the UN has called the regime the worst offenders of human rights. Dont beleive me? Do a search on the internet. Educate yourself instead of simply listening and watching your homegrown anti liberation media (no offence intented)

I have to point out a similiar ocurrence that happened over 50 years ago. Yes I´m talking about the end of the Nazi party at the tail end of the WW2. If Hitler had been successfull do you beleive you would be better off today? I know I wouldnt be, and it seems to me that Germany got along very nicely without him.

Please Explain what is wrong about liberating a people from the worlds cruelest and most oppressive regime????????????



I think this is the wrong question. The right one is: How much is the price?

So what about the dead iraqi civilian? You could ask their families if the liberation was it worth.
What about the soldiers on both fronts? You could ask their families too.
What about the reputation of the USA in the world and especially in the near east?
What about the billions of dollar needed for the war. You could ask mainly poorer people in the USA if it was it worth.

But altough I made this posting here I think this is not the right place to do it. Basically I thinks it's in general hard to discuss by writing.

regards,
Alex

So you cant answer the question What is wrong with liberating the Iraqi people it seems. OK, again you have to resort to conspiracy theories. Alex, no one can know every single outcome of every single action. The US is not all knowing and all powerful. They dont have secret devices planted in every building in the world. Many people simply watch a hollwodd film and beleive the US government knows everything, and can do anything. THE us mucks it up just like every one else. BUT, SOMETHING had to be done. Sanctions did not work for 12 years so what would you do. How can you remove a regime that couldnt care less about its people even if they die. There is no debate reagrding that. The Iraq regime couldnt care less about their people. It was all about what the chosen few could get.

The cost: I hear that line all the time What About The Dead Civillians....Of course its terrible but lets put things in to perspective for a moment. Casualties on both sides have been minimal. I beleive that the Iraqi people will honour those that died in their memories for many years to come just as we do from WW2. Its all very nice and admirable being ultra caring for the innocent people who have lost their lives. Also this was a war, and in war people die, but to sit and DO NOTHING would have cost far more lives and mysery on the Iraqi people. Again tell me what you would have done to remove Saddam. I cannot understand why you doubt Saddam was a monster. Do you beleive he would have gone quitely eventually?. I say no chance.

Another perspective on casulaties (and I hate to drag up the past but as you seem so fond of it). How many Russian, British, French, Polish, Dutch, Belgian etc lives were lost during ww2. In one battle in France I recall something like 40,000 troops were killled in one day. In Russia the number was even higher. That war compared to this liberation doesnt compare in teh slightest. WW2 and 1 were truly horrific and the total number of lives lost during those 2 conflicts ran in to millions, not a couple of thousand. I may sound uncaring, but its not. I merely see that in the long term MORE lives will be saved due to the removal of the Baath party.

How many lives are lost each year on Germanys roads? Why arnt you out there protesting at that. Ban crs, dont drive them. The world trade centre How many. Not even a war.

Lets say a terrorist group gets hold of a NUKE and lets it off in Berlin, London, New York. How many lives will be lost. Im sorry Alex, but to do nothing is a far more dangerous prospect than doing something. It seems many people want to wait UNTIL something happens. Well it DID happen WTC and Bali. Although I beleive Iraq had nothing to do with that whatsoever. The US and UK government didnt need to say that to convince me. I already knew what life was like in Iraq, As I said in my first post For Me this conflic was about liberation. Quite frankly if the US decides to take some oil I dont care. But they wont I am certain of that.

The Cost: You Tell Me What The cost Will Be?. You seem to think the consequences of this conflict will be disastorous for mankind. Rubbish. In the garnd scheme of things this is merely a skirmish. But it does send a clear message to other Dictators. I guess you beleive that Terrorism will increase and you may be right. However if nothing was done to you beleive that terrorists would stop. I bet even if the Israel quesion had a solution many middle east terrorist groups would still attack the west. Why stop? You see they also have an agenda just like every one else. Terrorism isnt a new thing but heres what will happen in 20 years if nothing was ever done about countries that endorse terrorism (particulrly Syria)

You will live in a world like this:

70% of the world countries will have nuclear weapoms (probably more)

Terrorist groups will become far more sophisticated and this means that ththey to will have access to nukes

You will not be able to visit many countries for many reasons. Fear being the biggest.

Your childern will grow up in a world where terror, and war is the norm. Nukes will be used I predict on a large european city within the next 20 years. When it happens once it will happen again.

If the US is ever hit with a nuke, they will immediately retaliate by using nukes, then this bring other countries in and what do we have a Full scale WW3 with nukes being used. Loss of life would run in to hundreds of millions

OR

The major powers can deal with this definite threat NOW.

I for one would rather deal with it now.

Finnaly Alex dont forget that you live in a country that was at war with mine during ww2. The US could have stayed to this day if they wished but they didnt. Yes, they have had influence, but you do have your own government and you are free to vote as you please. It seems to me that the oppressive ones were the Russians when they decided to build a wall through the centre of Berlin. As I said I am not anti German or French in the slightest but I cant help but feel that there is a rather lax attitude or I might even go as far to sya an Isolationist attitude coming from both Germany and France. Its acase of lets not get involved because it doesnt affect me directly..................Thats the attitude that Dictators love. If I was one Germany, Farnce, and Russia woul dbe my friend

The only difference now is that the Lions jaw has been opened and we will all have to wait and see what unfolds in the coming months and years.


New

[Alex]

Hi new,

What you say is some USA companies have done forbidden business with iraq because the USA cannot control it. But in Germany & France the administration forced forbidden business with the iraq.

Escpecially Haliburton has done a lot of business between 1991 & 2000 in iraq. D. Cheney himself said it after firstly he tried to deny it. Same with the other big energy companies. But I'm sure D. Cheney has it forgotten since his new job.

As for Russia I know they were dong business with Iraq, but not on teh scale of Germany and France.

LOL

Arguments like yours are always based on conspiracy theories

Don't understand. Where is the relation to conspiracy theories?
My argument was that Irak got all kind of weapons from everywhere.

When I read you posting I realized it was a failure to answer anything. You can't or don't want to understand. It's like G. W. Bush said "If you not with us, you're with the terrorists". I called it new american dualism. If I'm against the war I'm of course pro Hussein with all consequences. Sounds absurd to me.

To save your time it's not necessary to say me everytime how bad & dangerous the Irqa regime is or was. There's no question about that. But that's not the point.

regards,
Alex

[not logged in]

let me save you all the trouble.
France and Germany did not want the war for the wrong reasons
America and Brittain wanted the war for the wrong reasons

I'm an american, and so happy that the Iraqi people don't have to deal with Saddam Hussein anymore, but please don't kid yourselves thinking that George Bush gives a damn! about the Iraqi people, the Hatiens, or the africans (rawanda anyone?). Please don't lie because you can't tell a good enough lie to make people foolishly believe that he or the american government does care.

America has it's intrest and only it's intrest and if a few Iraqis get some help during the process that's all fine and dandy by George Bush Just Don't get in the way.

these discussions allways remind me of those people who say black people in america were done a favor by slavery because they are better off than the people in africa right now.-----what a load of obnoxious bullshit.


::mic-minimal:: notlogged in

[Guest]

Alex,

As I have repeatedly said your arguments are based purely on what the US has done in the past. America did this, America did that, what about the people dying in teh Congo etc etc.

Alex you most definitely are one of those people that beleive in every conspiracy theory badndied about with little if any reference to the real facts.

There is no doubt in my mind that the US, UK, and any other government is as corrut as the rest of them. But that is notthe point, I choose not to stick my head in the sand.

You mention Cheney, haliburton. Well why not mention Brown and Root?. Yourf whole ethos is based on what you have read from the far left press, chats around the bar etc. do you beleive all the worlds problems are donw to Dick Cheney, Haliburton, Bush, teh US, The UK. Why do you singole out a couple fo instances with total disregard for the actual facts. I will tell you Conspiracy theories.......

While it is very fashionable to bash everything America and has been for sometime DONT forget that you live in a country that has democracy because of the US. or have you forgotten that?

Yu can do this:

Vote for who you like

watch and read whatever you like

Voice your opinion

Make as much money as you want

marry who you want

have as many childern as you like

Live very comfortably

Criticise your own or any other government without repercussion

Demonstrate for any purpose you wish, again with no repercussion

etc etc etc etc etc

Could you have done those things in Iraq....NO.

The democracy that you take for granted and which enables you to live the way you do was fought very hard for. Not last week, but over the course of 2-300 years. Its not a perfect system, and is certainly open to abuse. But as i walk down my road I am not confronted by Millita (killers) or living in fear of being jailed, tortured, or even murdered every day. As I say Democracy is not perfect but at the moment I beleive it to be one of the best systems we have. Still, you sit there and criticise democracy. Thats very hypocritical when you have not lived under any other system to compare it with. yet you heavily criticise (but mostkly single out a few individuals) but I dont beleive yu actually realise what you are criticising. Democracy is a very old system which was invented long before the US was born. I think it was the Greeks that invented democracy. Its not an American thing. You shoudl keep that in mind.

Dont forget Alex that millions and millions have died during the last century to give YOU the freedom you so easily take for granted today. What would you like to tell them now. Thanks, but you neednt have bothered?

As I write this AGAIN, I am watching TV. This time Aljazeera. What do I see. people rejoicing in Kirkuk. One man is interviwed and he says he Loves America. I didnt tell hime to say that, and neither did Bush, Blair, Cheney etc. I didnt hear him saying thankyou germany, France, Russia. You would deny this man his freedom.

I put it to you Alex that you are simply and obviously Anti American. i repeat you sound ANTI AMERICAN.

well Alex, heres what to do.

Dont buy any US products
dont watch US hollywodd movies
cut off all ties with every american u know
dont Listen to American music
dont read us magazines
dont eat us food
dont use apple computers
dont use microsoft operating systems
dont buy an american car
dont buy US clothes
dont fly to the us
dont fly on a US airline

The list can go on and on.

Basically stay away from everything that has been tainted with Americanism.

Hmmmm, not easy eh. Thats because you would actually need to move out of a democratic country and live in an opressive regime. Syria shoudl be a top canditae for you, or North korea.

Alex, look at China, and in particular look at their human rights record. It has improved substantially since Tianemen square. Why?. becaus eif they didnt they would have a lot more trouble from theior citizens. And why do you think those 220 died in Tianemen square. Thats right Alex they wanted a more open society and were sick and tired of the oppression the faced. They still do , but its a lot better. Or put another way, those people that demonstrated and died wanted DEMOCRACY and many of them beleived it to be worth dying for, just like millions during the second world war. OH, I hear you WW2 wasnt about democracy. Well what was it about then????

It was none of the things you beleive the Iraqi liberation were for. And it wasnt for US expansionsim. So what could it be I wonder? You answer that one please. At least try and answer one question or at least answer my original question to you.

what was WW2 all about, and why did so many die for it?

What was bad about liberating Iraq?

2 simple questions Alex. See if you can answer them.


peace.

[new]

and BTW Alex,

Live is an excellent piece of software

[new]

these discussions allways remind me of those people who say black people in america were done a favor by slavery because they are better off than the people in africa right now.-----what a load of obnoxious bullshit.

I have never ever head anyone say that Blacks were done a favour by slavery because they are better off. I can only assume that it must be real dumbass folks from the south.

But what was your point anyway? Do you mean that because human history is tainted with the blodd and persecution of one another then we should do nothing EVER becaue its all a load of crap and will only benefit the president and his henchmen?

U see thats what I mean about Conspiracy Theories.

where do conspiracy theories mainly come from. Amercia thats where.

So it stands to reason that its now a widely known phenomena and for most people it seems to make perfect sense, However, with a little research, and an open mind, with emphasis on uncovering facts you to would find that not everything the US government does is a big secret and to be kept a secret from the people.

U see, I can sit here and say that an Anti american group have systematically been working away for years to undermine Democracy in America. And the best way to do that would be to get the people beleiving that everything the government does is a lie and is ultimately just a bad lot that dont care less about their own country men. Eventually the people will have had enough of this corrupt system known as democracy and will revolt against it thus bringing on a civil war. Then my party 'The peoples Truth Party' comes out of the woodwork and takes over the country. And my real motive is anything but the truth and the whole truth. Deep down I am really after world domination..........!

Sound like a fantasy??????????

Well the US government has been accused of it time and time again and WILL BE time and time again. Even as we speak

Its tough being the cop of the world I guess........

[Alex]

Hi again,

sorry but I will not posting anything more in this thread.

1. It's the wrong place and 2. It brings nothing. Your have your opinion, I have mine.

But feel free to send me an email if you want.


regards,
Alex

[email protected]

[Guest In A Vest]

Let's get this straight and this is to any US citizens that get their hackles raised when we out here seemingly oppose what is going on here and put forward a few possible agendas...

As I understand it, no right minded person is saying that the Iraqi regime didn't need doing something about. BUT, and this is a BIG but, there are ways of doing things. It is seemingly 'okay' for Saddam Hussein to be personally targeted with a bomb being dropped on his head or sticking a rocket launched grenade up his ass during this conflict (or after) BUT stretch this any which way you want, this is assasination and that is NOT the way the west likes things to be done if it was to happen the other way around.

Capture him, send him to a war tribunial, whatever. That is the way we supposedly tell the rest of the worlkd we like these things dealt with so if you can't see why this is seen as VERY dubious and hipocritical to people outside your 'regime' then I'd pour a coffee and have a good sit down and think about it because it just plain is.

War tribunials may be a joke, the UN may be a joke, etc, etc but these are the frameworks that were set up AND AGREED UPON to deal with such matters and to just decide that the way YOU want things dealt with and bollocks to what the rest of the world thinks is beyond arrogance, trust me it really is and there is no question.

You make rules and you either abide by them or don't be surprised when people point a few fingers when you just up and bend them to suit.

The fall oif this regime will ultimately be a good thing for the Iraqi people and they will hopefully gain from this horrendous conflict, and the horror that goes with it, but others will gain as well and when they do it by saying "screw you, we're doing it our way whatever anyone else wants" it doesn't sit easy with the idea of an alternative regime that spouts the words "democracy", "freedom" and "justice" with the proviso of "we decide what any one of those words mean at any one time and you can stick all other world views up your asses 'cos we are the boss and can ignore any treaties/unions/coallitions we signed up to in the past".

[ryansupak]

A couple of brief observations:

1) I'm American, and a Texan at that (For those living abroad, Texas is GW Bush's home province). This might be a vast generalization, but I always am left admiring how a person from Western Europe seems to be able to participate in an intense discussion, and get their point across, without it coming across as a personal attack.

On the contrary -- I've met few Americans who can do this, and the postings here are a good example of that.

2) Any way you slice it, "Shock and Awe" is a fancy word for terrorism. Mechanically speaking these things work in exactly the same way.

3) I think the world is better off without Saddam, but I don't want to live in a world where might makes right, but it gets passed off as "justice" under a veil of moral sanctimony.

rs

[Kevin B]

Our "New Guest" although admitting that this is not the forum for this type of discussion has insisted on driving his opinion home. Its not like he is going to change anyone's views especially when we come to this site for information about making music with the software we so admire, that being of course Live (we love you abelton!).

I am glad Alex decided to take his discussion off the site. The back and forth banter could have gone on for days as it is obvious our New friend on the forum is commited to accusing people with an opinion as AntiAmerican and as of being only influenced by conspiracy theories, when Alex made no reference to any conspiracy theory that I know of.

Basically, I feel I had to say something in defense from this forum bully who refuses to even identify himself with at least a made up handle.

Pacifism and Peace is the only way we as a technologically submerged society can continue to exist. Taking a stance as a pacifist superpower is the only way to insure a positive message is sent to the rest of the world.

Conitnuing with any type of killing is nonesense and with a quick introduction to Logic principles you will find the falicy in most every offical policy the world powers take toward one another. A small group of government officials have a dispute and the average man is convince to give his life to protect the governments interests. This is the status quo people. Whether a brutal regime or a capitalist democracy.

I can't do this anymore. My brain is tired. Bye.

One last thing, conspiracy theories faclitate the need for extreme speculation into the operations of those in power. These theories are indeed based in fact as they use a fact to spring board off into speculation. This type of suspicion is a necesary function for a society that is run not by physical manipulation but rather by mental manipulation and influence. Think about it. Without extreme speculation we may never find the passion enough to stand up and investigate the wrongs that are commited on a daily basis, and the true plans those in power have for the world. See: www.pnac.org - The Project for a New American Century is the world's future. Check it out and identify the logic and rhetoric.

You're misguided New, Join the Left of us and do some good, use your powers of reason to make this world better. Go back to school.

Kevin Bleich
[email protected]
818-800-0630
bring it on

[Guest]

the marines kicked some ass!