LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

[sdfak1234]

these days i try to do everything with Live, which admittedly hasn't been much lately, but it's true i use Cubase, FL Studio and Soundforge too.

i don't use a lot of plugins though... which ironically is one of the reasons this topic interests me so much. i want to make sure that i'm not making things worse if/when i do use them.

me too, well my order of things was FL>Cubase>Ableton, and now I want to streamline everything into Ableton. The thing about my workflow is that I need to do a lot experimentation, quite quickly and I need to do automation on complex fx chains, that I want to change as I'm working, I have to bounce now, but that sucks. Plugins absolutely must sound right as much as possible, it totally messes with my ears when I'm manually compensating, you can't learn the sound of your track.

[Tone Deft]

why put more automation abilities into the software AND devise an expensive proprietary automation creation tool when the software doesn't handle automation very well?

I can see how jumping DAWs in a project would be tough. you jump to the next DAW then realize you didn't do x, y or z in the first DAW and feel compelled to go back.

[shadiradio]

I don't post here much, but I read the threads almost daily, and I think I can echo this sentiment. Live basically works the my brain does - the flow, the structure, the routing, the fx chains organization. I love it. But it is definitely lacking in some areas, such as the PDC issue, and I think we are passionate about it because we truly want to stay with Live. I use it as a traditional linear DAW and in most respects I like the workflow in Live more than other DAWs.

I was just running up against the 32-bit memory limit in projects this year, so my timing with that is somewhat serendipitous as it is now basically fixed (though I also work to video, and at the moment can't do that in 64-bit Live). However I know that's not the case for tons of users, and I can imagine their frustration all these years of not being able to use a lot of very high quality samples.

Multi-monitor, I thought for sure would be in 9. I mean - it didn't even occur to me that it wouldn't. I'm sort of blown away by that. There are a lot of pictures of the Ableton office with multiple monitors on their desks - I'd almost like to photoshop some of them with "Yeah, multiple monitors are useful, huh?" but that would be mean.

I love Live, but to just think "why keep using it if it doesn't do what you want" is too black and white. It does a lot of what I need, and doesn't do some other things that I need. And investing all this time and money makes you hope that the things that are missing that you need will be included (soonish). It's a hope based on investment and attachment I guess.

I even had to modify the Mackie Control python scripts myself to make it actually work without garbling the display because who knows when they'll fix that.

[shadiradio]

One more example which frustrates me with almost every project: midi chase. If my track sounds weird, it's almost always because Live is not reading the automation lines exactly where they are at. You have to back up and let Live play through an automation point for it to pick up a change. So bizarre. I end up having to create starting automation points in clips that shouldn't need them.

[massenmedium]

All setups have their "issues" and quirks. I mean if you use all hardware there's all sorts of stuff you'll deal with. You work with them, see what you can get out of it. I think you'll always feel confounded if you expect things to work 100% as they're "supposed to". Would be boring as well. Of course you can have intent and vision or whatever but the currently popular notion that you can "sculpt" everything very precisely sort of denies that any time you work with instruments or machines there's a kind of cybernetic collaboration going on that is coloured by the interfaces and all kinds of idiosyncrasies on either side.

Not that I would want Ableton to be too blase about this but it's not necessarily a big issue, more like something that isn't implemented in a particular way.

Yeah sure - you're doing very serious and important scientific stuff with certain plugins and it all has to phase aligned etc. Yawn.

[sdfak1234]

I love Live, but to just think "why keep using it if it doesn't do what you want" is too black and white. It does a lot of what I need, and doesn't do some other things that I need. And investing all this time and money makes you hope that the things that are missing that you need will be included (soonish). It's a hope based on investment and attachment I guess.

Well it's a little bit different for me, I believe you should make the most out of what you have certainly, and that will obviously include Live, I mean obviously 15 years ago I was using primitive stuff by comparison, probably making better records too... what I'm talking about is more about getting out of the upgrade cycle somehow and actually for me at this point, I may actually take a break from music for a few years because the music technology thing is kinda like an addiction, I mean it's still about making better records but you just constantly find new frustrations, and it stimulates you like a drug, but your mind ends up traveling farther than the version can take you... it's always a kind of 2 steps forward, 2 steps back thing with music software and the perfectionist in me can't stand it. and I'm not going to start playing guitar again or something, I'm a computer musician... anyway.

[Brian Badonde]

For anyone questioning why Ableton have not commented on the PDC issue to me the answer is simple.

The golden rule of the internet: If you know you have a problem, never, ever publicly admit it. Silence is the only option.

My belief is that they know the problem with PDC cannot be fixed without a substantial rewrite or ground up rewrite. From a business point of view, they haven't updated the program for three years and need to come with an update, especially as Bitwig is (potentially) just around the corner. Therefore, slap some new features in as a "tide me over" and there we have v9. To publicly admit there's a major issue that cannot be fixed for some time would be commercial suicide and would no doubt harm the boost to the companies coffers that 9 will bring.

I'm fluent in Live, Cubase and Logic. Logic's stone age now and i've all but written it off, the only saving grace being the included plugins. Cubase is pretty solid and up to date but lacks Live's great workflow and ingenuity and is, frankly, a little dull.

I'm absolutely gutted that they've not sorted this issue in 9. I'd be amazed if they turn it around for the public release when it comes. If they do, great, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm quite upset about this, because otherwise Live's the best program by a long way and I was really looking forward to being able to use 9 as my main DAW. However, this issue alone is enough for me to reluctantly stick with Cubase as, at the moment, it's the best of a bad bunch.

Such a shame man, such a shame.

[sdfak1234]

Yeah sure - you're doing very serious and important scientific stuff with certain plugins and it all has to phase aligned etc. Yawn.

Yeah, actually these guys are talking about problems that permeate, sure, most people my not realize there even was a problem, but these aren't special cases. Guitars are tuned. Speakers are calibrated. Plugin delay is compensated.

[sdfak1234]

I think it's important that all users fully understand the issues, if there are enough users bothered about it, maybe they'll fix it, it doesn't get brought up in publications. I think PDC hasn't been fixed because not enough people knew about it to cause a stir... also I'm starting to have doubts about the quality Ableton can deliver, I think it may be wishful thinking to believe the version of your dreams is just around the corner, I mean I'm getting a serious sense of de ja vu here.

[Tone Deft]

My belief is that they know the problem with PDC cannot be fixed without a substantial rewrite or ground up rewrite.

if you read the Henke post you'll see that he mentions a tradeoff between delaying the audio which creates latency and making Live as low latency as possible. this has spurred ideas of a live mode and a production mode, which has been brought up for other use cases. the DJs want one thing while the producers want another.

a problem of trying to be too many things to too many people? can't please everyone all the time.

I imagine this is where the ka-ching that Pro Tools costs comes into play. they have more money and can spend more time writing more efficient code.

[massenmedium]

Yeah, actually these guys are talking about problems that permeate, sure, most people my not realize there even was a problem, but these aren't special cases. Guitars are tuned. Speakers are calibrated. Plugin delay is compensated.

Trashy guitars and damaged speakers are the basis of rock music. In fact neither are ever perfect. But it's perhaps not quite comparable. Perhaps.

Plugin delay hasn't always been compensated, and there haven't always been plugins. There is PDC in Live of course, but there are trade-offs and yes some quirks in the implementation.

It's just - as you say yourself - people can look for all sorts of problems. But it really doesn't have to stop you making music. Really.

[kent_sandvik]

Yeah, actually these guys are talking about problems that permeate, sure, most people my not realize there even was a problem, but these aren't special cases. Guitars are tuned. Speakers are calibrated. Plugin delay is compensated.

Trashy guitars and damaged speakers are the basis of rock music. In fact neither are ever perfect. But it's perhaps not quite comparable. Perhaps.

Plugin delay hasn't always been compensated, and there haven't always been plugins. There is PDC in Live of course, but there are trade-offs and yes some quirks in the implementation.

It's just - as you say yourself - people can look for all sorts of problems. But it really doesn't have to stop you making music. Really.

When I've encountered PDC issues I just do workarounds, bounce or disable plug-ins and so on. But it would be nice if the application would do what I say and not the other way around.

[sdfak1234]

Yeah, actually these guys are talking about problems that permeate, sure, most people my not realize there even was a problem, but these aren't special cases. Guitars are tuned. Speakers are calibrated. Plugin delay is compensated.

Trashy guitars and damaged speakers are the basis of rock music. In fact neither are ever perfect. But it's perhaps not quite comparable. Perhaps.

Plugin delay hasn't always been compensated, and there haven't always been plugins. There is PDC in Live of course, but there are trade-offs and yes some quirks in the implementation.

It's just - as you say yourself - people can look for all sorts of problems. But it really doesn't have to stop you making music. Really.

I think you've missed the point of my analogy, you cannot detune something unless you first had a reference tuning, trashy guitars are trashy relative to clean guitars.. the problem with these PDC issues is that you can't get a clean reference, and that is serious problem, probably more so for producers than Live performers (yes I'm aware that PDC has been partially implemented in Live) . Agree with your last sentence but where do we draw the line with new technology?, for me it's all about the new sound, the new technique, the improved workflow, that's just me.

[massenmedium]

I didn't miss your comparison but it was really just three statements none of which are true in all cases.

Must admit I have a hard time seeing it as a serious problem and I think dwelling on that and being so concerned about clean references is probably a sign of being a bit overly retentive.

I can see it from an engineering point of view and of course won't be annoyed if it's improved but yes I suppose in the wider scheme of things I don't really find it much of an issue.

You'll be chasing that ideal forever, but then maybe you like that more than music.

[sdfak1234]

I didn't miss your comparison but it was really just three statements none of which are true in all cases.

Must admit I have a hard time seeing it as a serious problem and I think dwelling on that and being so concerned about clean references is probably a sign of being a bit overly retentive.

I can see it from an engineering point of view and of course won't be annoyed if it's improved but yes I suppose in the wider scheme of things I don't really find it much of an issue.

You'll be chasing that ideal forever, but then maybe you like that more than music.

I understand you have a hard time seeing it as a serious problem. I see it as a serious problem.