PDC poll

[agent314]

I'm curious how many people have run into issues with Live's Plugin Delay Compensation (PDC) implementation, and for those that have, how they have been affected.

[3dot...]

I can adjust timing when it's all in waves...
besides... offline rendering timing seems to be ok

I've never found it to be severe really,,,
it's just a PITA...
it keeps you on your toes when you really don't want to deal with latencies and phasing
also the fact that this happens with even some of Lives' FX...
says that this is a deep rooted problem.

Ableton have already confirmed they are fixing this.
They took some time with steadying the MIDI Clock OUT ...
(THAT was something I couldn't get around)
but eventually they fixed it..

[Tarekith]

I feel sorry for the people who do such detailed editing that they are affected by this, but it's not something I've ever noticed or had an issue with in my workflow.

[esp81]

The problem with pdc combined with no snap to grid makes automating plugins extremely frustrating compared to other DAWs.

[nathannn]

i went through 3 of my current projects trying to find an example of this problem occurring and i just cant hear it. i use automation all the time.
maybe there are some very slight timing issuing going on that im not hearing but, the way people are describing this, i should be hearing everything fall apart.
when i turn off pdc everything does fall apart but when left on everything seems to be in time.

also people mention hearing phasing? i only hear this on synth tracks that i duplicated to pan left and right but i fix that by adjusting the delay.

could some one that has this problem post a live set that this is happening in?

[simmerdown]

non-issue for me too thanksgoodness, got problems enough

[SpeedKing]

Yeah, I keep hearing about this, but I haven't ever come across this as being as issue.

I'd love for one of the people who say they have problems to put up a video (with audio) or something (showing the problem). Not that I don't believe that it can possibly be an issue I guess, but I would just be really interested to actually see the problem.

EDIT: And to clarify, if this problem exists, I probably wouldn't have come across it before. I use Ableton mainly for recording real instruments along with using piano roll for lots of different linear musical writing. And I have various VSTs for different things. The people who run into this problem are probably way more advanced in terms of...well, most things in Ableton.

[Nemou]

The problem with pdc combined with no snap to grid makes automating plugins extremely frustrating compared to other DAWs.

Do we know if snap to grid doesn't exist in Live 9 yet? It's remarkable how small things that are so useful can slip by so many versions.

You probably know this trick already, but I usually do a Ctrl+B edit when I want curve points exactly on the grid and delete the points I don't want. Not the nicest but the fastest way to get there as far as I know.

[su]

Use third party timing based plugs with regularity (timeless, ricochet, camelspace) sometimes stacking multiple effects per track. Have never experienced pdc problems.

[sdfak1234]

The way this poll is worded and some of these responses indicate a lack of understanding of the problem. This is not a problem that manifests itself at a single point in time, it's not that kind of problem... also there are several problems that get lumped together with PDC, I don't feel comfortable talking about delay problems with VSTs because it's a complicated subject, but it has been discussed at level elsewhere, PDC at this level works pretty well for me, but I have had unexplained shifts under certain conditions, the problem here for me that it can take a moment to realize it's happened, you draw over your changes, so you can't roll back. The problem with PDC automation is much more clear, and is known, if you draw automation after delay is introduced you will be in time (hopefully), but if you alter your FX chains and alter compensation, the draws don't get compensated, so they're no longer the same, sometimes it's a slight shift, and it's almost unnoticeable, but the problem adds up, and I've lost very detailed work by accidentally redrawing after changing delays and then the changes are no longer accurate, you end up writing different parts in different timings, in other words: lost work... I know some may not understand why it's important to have accurate recordings but that's not for me to explain. This problem is actually quite easy to encounter, if you add a VST, automate, then add another VST that adds delay, your last automate will no longer be accurate... I think most users do this all the time without realizing it... I have also messed up tracks trying to master them in Live, without realizing that my automation would be screwed. Another way of making it happen really easily is to change your ASIO buffers, this can also throw off your automation... this has been an epic problem for me working in different studios, projects sound different on different computers, try opening a project from last year, and you've changed your buffers, sometimes it takes fine hearing to notice it but other times it stands out because your mix turns flabby.. in the digital world you expect accuracy, you can compensate manually by being very careful, but it's a huge pain and there are other PDC issues I really don't even understand.

[sdfak1234]

Look I want to say as well, this is an advanced issue, no doubt about it, it's really a serious problem for people who do very fine automation work with a lot of FX, BUT the nature of the problem is such that it will throw off amateurs without them even realizing they've done it, and potentially could effect a lot of written automation parts, I don't think it's right in a pure sense to have this issue, ultimately everybody needs as stable and accurate sound as they can have.

[agent314]

For the people who are voting that the PDC issues are showstoppers, can you also post what plugs you are using and/or some audio examples of how it's messing up your automation/tracks?

[nathannn]

Look I want to say as well, this is an advanced issue, no doubt about it, it's really a serious problem for people who do very fine automation work with a lot of FX, BUT the nature of the problem is such that it will throw off amateurs without them even realizing they've done it, and potentially could effect a lot of written automation parts, I don't think it's right in a pure sense to have this issue, ultimately everybody needs as stable and accurate sound as they can have.

so you are saying this is something an amateur wouldn't notice?
i in no way consider myself a pro but from playing in bands that required a mechanical rhythm i feel i do know timing issues when i hear them.

i just tried your automation test and nothing happened, i tried it with a few plugins that i know to produce delay and plug ins that i have know idea if they produce delay.

i really wish you would just upload a simple live set with the examples you have given.

[sdfak1234]

so you are saying this is something an amateur wouldn't notice?
i in no way consider myself a pro but from playing in bands that required a mechanical rhythm i feel i do know timing issues when i hear them.

i just tried your automation test and nothing happened, i tried it with a few plugins that i know to produce delay and plug ins that i have know idea if they produce delay.

i really wish you would just upload a simple live set with the examples you have given.

ugh. yeah, I'm saying an amateur wouldn't notice, that's exactly what I'm saying [sarcasm]. just a lame response, totally unhelpful.

look, I haven't got time to explain this any further, but you actually don't get it - figure that out for yourself, not saying you're an amateur but you don't understand this problem. If you weren't aware of the problem, you may never notice it, like myself, once I understood it, it became clear.

audio examples are not good because it's not a/b, and timing issues are relative, BUT it is possible to show examples... maybe if I have time at the weekend I'll post some.

really blown away by some of the attitudes on this forum. PDC automation is a KNOWN Ableton problem, it's in the manual. and you guys are polling it. as if it doesn't exit.

[nathannn]

im not saying it isnt a real problem, im convinced something is wrong with reason but the user's of reason disagree.
im saying i have not experienced this issue. maybe it is because im not a pro. but since you are coming from a more proffesional world than some of us maybe you could educate us a bit by posting an example.

how you explained to do the test makes it seem like it would take longer to post a response than to produce an example.
you have to look at it from everyone elses point of view. its like saying you seen a alien but providing no proof of what you seen and expecting people to take it seriously.
you have been on this forum all day, but now you dont have time to post a little example?