LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

[Akshara]

Thanks for taking the time to share that, theophilus.

Now route that send to another send, or assign the send to an input of an audio channel, and see what happens.

viewtopic.php?p=1034783#p1034783

I get that you're looking for a way to manage this for yourself, and appreciate your curiosity and effort to understand the situation completely. Yet please don't diminish the issue in the process, or make it seem like there is a simple fix or workaround for this. In relatively straightforward projects, one can potentially work around it with the right tools and with enough forethought and micro-management of resources and workflow.

In the projects I work with, feeding a short reverb send into a long reverb send, like placing a choir loft in a cathedral, while keeping them pre-fader on two different sends to control the balance, is not an unusual scenario. Neither is running an oversampling soft synth which introduces latency into an oversampled reverb which introduces latency, into a tempo synced gate, into a tempo synced delay, into a tempo synced filter, with automation applied to all of those effects and to the track itself, then feeding all of that into the two sends above, and then routing it all to a sidechain bus. And that's only one instrument.

[theophilus]

Now route that send to another send, or assign the send to an input of an audio channel, and see what happens.

viewtopic.php?p=1034783#p1034783

I get that you're looking for a way to manage this for yourself, and appreciate your curiosity and effort to understand the situation completely. Yet please don't diminish the issue in the process, or make it seem like there is a simple fix or workaround for this. In relatively straightforward projects, one can potentially work around it with the right tools and with enough forethought and micro-management of resources and workflow.

that's a couple of things to try, thanks - if anyone else has some, i'd like to see those too. though there are some cases where PDC doesn't converge, not sure if you are describing those cases or not. i'm not trying to diminish the problem, i'm trying to create a detailed description of exactly what ableton currently does, and what i think ableton should do. don't know if it will help, but if they don't have something like that inside, it may spur this to be fixed more quickly. that's my end goal, at least.

In the projects I work with, feeding a short reverb send into a long reverb send, like placing a choir loft in a cathedral, while keeping them pre-fader on two different sends to control the balance, is not an unusual scenario. Neither is running an oversampling soft synth which introduces latency into an oversampled reverb which introduces latency, into a tempo synced gate, into a tempo synced delay, into a tempo synced filter, with automation applied to all of those effects and to the track itself, then feeding all of that into the two sends above, and then routing it all to a sidechain bus. And that's only one instrument.

that gives me an idea... it would create a LOT of latency, but what if there was a device that, based on its own offset from the midi clock (can it know?) would do nothing but create enough latency to align itself to the next midi (clock, beat, bar). would theoretically at least be more consistent, even if it had higher latency. in producer mode, you wouldn't care. that wouldn't fix all cases of course.

[H20nly]

...

[H20nly]

forum dweller...very sad

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agreed.

[Akshara]

that gives me an idea... it would create a LOT of latency, but what if there was a device that, based on its own offset from the midi clock (can it know?) would do nothing but create enough latency to align itself to the next midi (clock, beat, bar). would theoretically at least be more consistent, even if it had higher latency. in producer mode, you wouldn't care. that wouldn't fix all cases of course.

I'm genuinely trying to see how that could help. It would align the audio signal to the overall timing grid, which would be better than off the grid as a broad stroke, I guess... yet the beats would actually still be in the wrong place, both musically and for editing on the visible grid, which is something to consider if precision is desired. If I compose a note to land on the third beat of the third measure, I don't want it to sound at the first beat of the fourth measure, especially if I'm looking at another note in that location visibly. That's too confusing. Maybe I'm not understanding the idea clearly.

[Akshara]

So I need to bow out of the discussion. It's just too much, the complexity of the issue itself, and the time involved with explaining and debating it. It actually gives me a headache and can put me in a not so good mood; and I was relatively content with the situation before the Live 9 announcement. Production calls, so good luck with it guys.

And Ableton, if you're listening. Thank you for giving this consideration.

[MrFingerDrums]

forum dweller...very sad

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agreed.

great you and your alter ego (weirdo) have tens of thousand of post Brah !!!


H20 is TONE DEFT TONE DEFT is H20

H20 is TONE DEFT TONE DEFT is H20

H20 is TONE DEFT TONE DEFT is H20


i need to take a shower

[Acid303]

WAV, AIFF, MP3, Ogg Vorbis, FLAC file support

Hopefully this proper support and now it won't convert everything into bloddy .wav and waste my HD space! Shame m4a seems to be left out though which is a nightmare as its the only lossless mixing in key uses apart from wav which is too big!

Does this mean we can convert all of our sample libraries into FLAC and save a ton of space?

[H20nly]

@ MrFingeredBum - keep reaching... meantime, maybe you should post something that isn't an attack on Ableton or an attack on other forum members ... you're up to a whopping 8 posts now - all of them bullshit.

how has PDC affected you and your music?

[casiblake]

Now that some people have beta access, I'd like to put this related question out there:

Has the MIDI "delay" that occurs when using a MIDI channel with monitoring set to IN or AUTO been fixed?

[merges]

There is immense difficulty in addressing multiple subjects like this in a single thread.

On timing, generally, I think the confusion that arose here is indicative of a fairly straightforward problem (from the user experience perspective). Even though there are multiple kinds of timing issues, the fact is that a lot of folks have difficulty understanding why Live gets "out of time" for them.

Ableton have admitted such (specifically saying that although these complicated interactions are not ideal and will be addressed "at some point" in the future), but their remedy has been to adjust text in the manual.

The way I see this problem, is that Live has an amazing, lightweight, "do anything" workflow, and one of the effects of that workflow, given some incomplete implementations of certain features (like automation curves), is a tendency to run up against these shortcomings. So in essence, Live encourages people to throw together complex racks with lots of plugins and sidechains (by making it so easy and worthwhile), but in doing so, users run up against these problems. In the case of delay compensation and timing issues, the problem is that users can paint themselves into a corner that's extremely difficult to get out of, if not functionally impossible. (In HCI, we might refer to this as "unforgiving" user interface/experience.) Other software might not let us get so creative. Or they might make the remedies (like freezing and flatting, or moving multiple curves at once, etc.) easier.

Anyway, this is a long way of saying that the problem *is* multifactorial, it *is* complicated, but the way that it presents to users is sudden and confusing and through no complicated actions of their own; it is simply by using Live creatively, which Live excels at, that these problems crop up.

In my line of business, this kind of thing would be a bedrock issue to work on. I hope Ableton considers it such an issue moving forward. But I still haven't heard comments/seen comments from L9 beta testers about this.

[Tone Deft]

Now that some people have beta access, I'd like to put this related question out there:

Has the MIDI "delay" that occurs when using a MIDI channel with monitoring set to IN or AUTO been fixed?

that's a different issue and not a bug.

set midi in to OFF when using the delay compensation. see the Driver Error Compensation lesson. it's not in the manual.

connect an output to an input, play it out, record the input (careful about feedback), measure the delay using the timeline at the bottom of Arrange View, enter the delay in the preferences, try again until you get it tight.



merges - nice. the tradeoffs DAW coders had to make for computers from 5+ years ago don't have to be made anymore.

[Hermanus]

MrFingerDrums = cperezz or what ?

[rtcardinal]

It's a shame this thread has come down to personal attacks, condescending view points, and bickering. It's a legitimate issue of broken functionality which really should be addressed. Yes, there can be work arounds (as with most bugs), but I hope more people can see why this is important and voice it here in a respectable manner. The greatest thing about this software is that everyone can use it differently. Unfortunately, that's probably also the biggest challenge to Ableton.

I use ableton as my main music creation tool, and also as my main sound design tool as a professional game sound designer at a large studio. It is, bar none, the most flexible audio and creation tool I have ever used, and I respect Ableton a great deal for their work. It's my audio world. It allows for sharing, modular workflow, and aside from a few areas, it's VERY quick for me. I find pretty much everything else a clunky emulation of the old way of doing things. Not my cup of tea.

In my day to day work I do a lot of sound design to picture (I know, I'm probably a minority here!), and I have to limit the tools/plugins that I use so that the sound and automation that I create does not go out of sync with the picture. Obviously there are work arounds, and I can stage-gate parts of the process or bounce to audio to make this work for the most part, but it costs time. Having proper delay compensation for audio (after lots of tests, seems quite solid), automation (It's broken) AND video could directly effect the quality and accuracy of the sounds that I create. We use WHATEVER tools we can, latency or not, right or wrong, to create the sounds we need for our content. It's a pain to have to constantly conform everything to picture again if a plugin chain gets a bit lengthy. Having a smooth workflow from point A to B, minus the timing problems, would be huge.

Writing, recording, sound design, arranging, mixing and even stem mixing/mastering, are all kind of intertwined and reversed in my own music creation (http://soundcloud.com/comaduster). I love the fact that this is possible with the software we have today. Everything just becomes a unified and limitless creative process, and we're just striving for good output, with as few or as many steps as we want in between. I think this is a process Ableton are definitely striving toward, and having fast and ACCURATE software only makes this easier.

Sorry for the rambling. It's what these forums are for, anyway.

[rtcardinal]

merges: +1