LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

[glitchrock-buddha]

there is another thread about sample rate 44.1 vs. 88.2... in that thread someone implied that VST latency can be reduced by using the higher sample rate. do any of you see that? and/or think that there is some merit to that?


oh and... nice sleuthing theophilus

It's true because latency is in samples, so if your sample rate is doubled, then your latency is actual time will be halved. That's if the latency is set by the number of samples. If it's a lookahead in actual ms causing the delay, like for a limiter or compressor, then it will be the same latency because it is actually looking at that much time before processing the signal.

[H20nly]

^ thanks.

so, please, forgive my fogginess on this... i still haven't experienced any PDC issues... but if someone is having this issue with PDC on a 44.1 track and they were to recreate everything (identically) on an 88.2 or 96 kHz set... could this help their timing issue or is that at a different fork in the road?

[Tone Deft]

serious props to theophilus, that's a great look under the hood. that plugin is only $20 to buy. I thought of trying a max4Live plugin but that's not quite fair.


I don't think sample rates are the right angle. some effects will be time based, some sample based, some tempo based. sample rate wouldn't affect tempo based plugins.

[H20nly]

got it. thanks.

[theophilus]

well... the answer is two-sided.

on one hand... no, it doesn't help that much. does it matter if your tempo sync is 1/32 beat off instead of 1/16 beat off? it's still off, though not as far off, and all increasing sample rate does is change how much time that 64 sample latency represents (or whatever it is). maybe it's enough.

but... on the other hand... from andy(cytomic)'s post a while back, there are also issues with oversampling and oversampling filters - and those can't even be fixed with pdc, because it's phase-shifted and frequency-dependent. and, for example, in live 8, if you click on HQ, you get extra latency. running at 88.2 for example lets you run the standard instead of HQ version of the EQ for the same sound quality, and so you don't have to switch to HQ and eat latency.

so it depends on what your real problem is. if the problem you're hitting is flanging/phasing by mixing an oversampled wet signal with a dry one, then it might help. if the problem is your tempo synced effect is not aligned, not so much.

(and the plugin i was using mostly is oszillos mega scope, which used to be free, but now he's asking for donations on his own website. probably could still get it for $20. volume shaper works too for single signals though, and is available

[glitchrock-buddha]

^ thanks.

so, please, forgive my fogginess on this... i still haven't experienced any PDC issues... but if someone is having this issue with PDC on a 44.1 track and they were to recreate everything (identically) on an 88.2 or 96 kHz set... could this help their timing issue or is that at a different fork in the road?

It's not that likely to help, but it's possible. If your track has effects that induce latency on a per sample basis, then it could help. For example B2 reverb has a latency of 64 samples, which translates to about 1.45 seconds in 44.1. That amount of latency will really do nothing to your timing, but I suppose if you had a while bunch of plug-ins that had latency of a certain number of samples and then you had some timing issues because of automation to devices that came after those, then yes a higher sample rate will cut the latency in half. But again, this only for plug-ins with a given sample delay. If an effect has a 10ms delay then sample rate won't affect it. I'm really not sure what plug-ins out there have a huge latency and whether they are ms base or sample based. I think Vintage warmer for example can go up to like 50ms or something but I don't know if it's a given ms delay or a sample delay. I doubt it would need a 50ms lookahead so I'd guess the latter, so in that situation it might help.

[MrFingerDrums]

MrFingerDrums = cperezz or what ?

Googled that shit and got Perez Hilton...must been a forum thing ??? you guys need to get some daylight

theophilus knows his shit respect to you

[theophilus]

thanks guys, much appreciated! it was fun! more to come... we need a list of what plugins have latency & how much somewhere. does anyone know if that exists?

also... if you're testing this at home, you probably already know this but external audio effect is a great latency generator - set it to 100% dry and you can set the exact latency you want it to create, up to 200ms/9600 samples.

[ze2be]

we need a list of what plugins have latency & how much somewhere. does anyone know if that exists?

Heres one that 3dot started. But its not measured, just a list of some latency enhancing plugs:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177073&start=0

[Dragonbreath]

Thanks theo and all the others who take time to investigate this issue. I never had any issues with this to date but can easily imagine how I would eventually got across it at some point.

To all the trolls on here, Get a life!

So getting alot better understanding of the limtiations and how to work around them. I do agree that this is real issues that eventually needs to be adressed. I dont think though its as simple to fix as some of the people here have suggested.

In other DAWS your usualy limited to a few plugins per track and the routing is more limited. I think these limitations in plugin count and routing possibilties would make it easier for them to compensate things like automation or tempo based effects.

One thing I started wondering though.

Did anyone try similar test in prootools or logic or other DAWs ?
Do we know for a fact that ableton is the only one with these problems? If so do you think the sheer expansiveness and lack of limitation of live compared to other daws is related to difference results?

People bash ableton saying all the other DAWs have proper PDC implemented, but do we know for sure there arnt quircks in there systems too but havent come across them because we mostly use ableton? Ableton also does alot of things that none of those other DAW's dont do is much more intuitive in general.

That bieng said I hope it gets fixed, otherwise we can keep documenting the issue to help us all deal with it

[esp81]

In other DAWS your usualy limited to a few plugins per track and the routing is more limited. I think these limitations in plugin count and routing possibilties would make it easier for them to compensate things like automation or tempo based effects.

Pretty much exactly this, combined with Live being geared towards actual live usage. Most Other DAWs have much better PDC at the cost of less flexible routing and no realtime performance capabilities.

[andydes]

Good to see the bickering has stopped for now. This is a good thread both to show ableton that it's an issue they need to sort and to help people deal with the issue as the software stands (not an excuse to not fix of course).

I've rarely noticed an issue, but it's now clear that's because I tend to do most automation on the device or on a prominent effect (read - usually early in chain). And I don't go too nuts with racks or sends.

The main time based effect of course is delay and I couldn't work out why this didn't seem to be a problem for me. An I right in saying that delay is tempo synced, but because it's only time not actual position, it's not affected (apart from automation of course). Seems to make sense.

That said, with the session automation and being free to go back and forth between the views much easier, I'm a bit worried I'm going to want to go nuts with automation and will run into the problem more. Hmm...

[ze2be]

Keep the device chains as simple and sparse as possible, and dont do anything fancy with send effects like nested or parallel racks, rythm gates, glitch sequencers, side chaining etc. Render as much as you can to audio and re-allign the audio file if its a bit out of time.

Its only a few projects that has become a problem for me, and I do loads of so called complex tracks. Likely to become even less problems in future projects as we learn how to avoid it.

[beatmunga]

Oh what fun, a 25 page thread I know sod all about to read! Here goes...


(quick summary anyone?)

Automation can happen significantly earlier than it should due to how Live handles the delays caused by plug ins. It is much more of a problem than on other DAWS.

After years of users putting up with this in the hope that Live 9 will address it, unfortunately early reports suggest not.

Cue someone telling me to stop whining... he did ask!

[Dr_Hdt]

Keep the device chains as simple and sparse as possible, and dont do anything fancy with send effects like nested or parallel racks, rythm gates, glitch sequencers, side chaining etc. Render as much as you can to audio and re-allign the audio file if its a bit out of time.

Its only a few projects that has become a problem for me, and I do loads of so called complex tracks. Likely to become even less problems in future projects as we learn how to avoid it.

Or get a serious DAW and see Ableton as it is. Just a live tool and sketch toy.
This software is way to expensive for overseeing this feature issues. just my 2cents