I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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morerecords
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I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:49 pm

Year after year I struggle with this. I only want to incorporate my hardware synths, possible with so many other DAWs.
it is a few years now of banging my head against the wall.

Why does the timing go to shit when I instantiate plug ins?

I have my external synths looping, nice little sequences, I havent committed anything to audio yet..
I monitor the DIRECT signal from my UAD Apollo (or any other interface I have used over the years) without it passing through Ableton's monitoring channels.

I can use the "reduced latency when monitoring" option to keep the hardware synth in line while also using plug ins, but- only one synth then, and only while I am keeping monitoring enabled on that external midi track- preventing me from moving forward in the compostion.

Why is the direct signal being affected by the latency the plug ins incur when they get opened? I can't remember since, it's been 3 years and terrible bugs left and right with Ableton 8- but I really dont remember having such issues with Live 7.

DONT tell me to read the manual, I can recite the damed thing. I curse you Ableton, I really can't go forward like this. It's just wasted time and energy, obviously there will never be a resolution.

Can anyone out there tell me how they sequence multiple hardware synths?

Can somebody please explain to me how they are effectively sequencing multiple synths while also using loops and plug ins that exist within Ableton?

Surely someone has at least figured out some methods of dealing with Ableton's "quirks". I don't remember every having issues like this with Cubase VST, or Logic over the years. I may be wrong but I think even with Live 7 things were alright.

I have been trying to keep positive through the Live 8 debacle, but really Im losing hope at this point. I haven't been able to consistently make music for 3 years. AAARGH!

ze2be
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by ze2be » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:37 pm

Wel, I only use one hardware synth, the virus Ti. I usually record it to audio as soon as possible. Sometimes with its effects, but in most cases dry. Typically I record a bunch of long, progressing audio clips in session. Sometimes a few versions of each sound. Then I crop them to the parts I want to keep. After that I spread them out to individual tracks.

If I need to do critical timing, I record its midi, then correct the midi notes, and then record straight to audio.

However, I feel your frustration! Ive given up on composing with sequencing hardware the old fasion way simply because I like to have everything in place when I load a project.
? ? ? ? ?

DIgiDennis
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by DIgiDennis » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:55 pm

hmm i find Ableton to be one of the better DAW's when it comes to external instruments, i must be using it wrong :?

I use the External Instrument, i dont monitor direct, and i delay the midiclock(preferences) -"the total sample amount from my audio interface"
Live compensates timing issues well when used like this, or that is atleast my experince.

morerecords
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Thanks .yes. You're using it wrong. :D

Is anyone out there using multiple hardware synths, (monitoring directly and not from within ableton) alongside using plug ins within ableton for affecting audio of software based midi tracks?

How are you dealing with the latency/timing issues?

Really at the end of my rope,

theophilus
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by theophilus » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:30 pm

DIgiDennis wrote:hmm i find Ableton to be one of the better DAW's when it comes to external instruments, i must be using it wrong :?

I use the External Instrument, i dont monitor direct, and i delay the midiclock(preferences) -"the total sample amount from my audio interface"
Live compensates timing issues well when used like this, or that is atleast my experince.
where do you see the option to delay the midi clock? i don't remember seeing that anywhere.

if you set the latency in the external instrument correctly, i don't know why it would be out of time. however, an external instrument will hit the same sort of automation PDC issues discussed elsewhere as an internal synth, so maybe you are hitting those. especially if you are monitoring directly and it sounds fine.. you should be able to tweak all the latencies until you get it pretty close.

morerecords
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:37 pm

Here is a 24 page post with people having similar/the same issues as myself:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884

Unfortunately, that thread veers off into trolling and people attacking each other...
Maybe we could try to discuss solutions and workarounds here?

Anyone?

broc
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by broc » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:17 pm

The External Instrument is designed for proper integration of hardware instruments. Why don't you want using it?

morerecords
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:18 pm

Jesus there is no reason to post on forums...

vinz89
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by vinz89 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:37 pm

Hi Morerecords,

did you try setting the track delay of your midi track with a negative value corresponding to your overall audio latency (global latency in prefs/audio)?

I don't remember well( it would be easier if i were on front of my laptop) but when i sequence my MS20 via a kenton midi-cv/gate converter i usually:
- use only one midi track with external instruments: automatic monitoring of audio without latency
_ use one midi track for the output of midi sequence and one audio track with monitor in or record armed: here i get a latency which i can compensate for by delaying the track delay of the midi track with the negative value of the overall latency: things are super tight this way...

But usually i don't sequence multiple hardware synths... (i have only a MS20 and a poor old microkorg which i use once every three years :-)

Cheers
Vinz

Machinesworking
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:08 pm

DIgiDennis wrote:hmm i find Ableton to be one of the better DAW's when it comes to external instruments, i must be using it wrong :?

I use the External Instrument, i dont monitor direct, and i delay the midiclock(preferences) -"the total sample amount from my audio interface"
Live compensates timing issues well when used like this, or that is atleast my experince.
morerecords wrote:Thanks .yes. You're using it wrong. :D

Is anyone out there using multiple hardware synths, (monitoring directly and not from within ableton) alongside using plug ins within ableton for affecting audio of software based midi tracks?

How are you dealing with the latency/timing issues?

Really at the end of my rope,
Seems to me DigiDennis posted a working method here.
One question, why do you desire to direct monitor multiple hardware synths and use software plug ins etc. ???
This seems like a recipe for timing issues to me. If you're listening to the direct throughput of synths with no plug ins on a track coupled with tracks that have plug ins on them you're going to hear latency and/or the tracks will sound out of time, whether PDC is on or not. Especially if you're sending MIDI from Ableton to this direct monitored hardware.
Personally I've never direct monitored my hardware synths, I would try a different method. Direct monitoring has some known oddities due to Ableton taking a different approach to it than the others, I've only used it for vocal and drum recording, nothing that requires timing from Live.

H20nly
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by H20nly » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:33 pm

morerecords wrote:Here is a 24 page post with people having similar/the same issues as myself:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884

Unfortunately, that thread veers off into trolling and people attacking each other...
Maybe we could try to discuss solutions and workarounds here?

Anyone?
did you read the whole thread or just part of it? the last few pages or so everyone seems to be getting along just fine... if you're going to skim, try jumping in at page 22 here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884&start=315

scroll down to the post from theophilus. can't miss it, it's a giant screen shot. he posted some really good test results and others are starting to identify specific reasons in their chains for PDC errors - not just "this doesn't work grrrrowl growl"... like... some people.

anyway, this thread has you looking a little schizophrenic at the moment... are you telling us how it should be, taking jabs at the forum, here to tell us if we're using Live right or wrong, looking for help, or just posting to say good bye?
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

Sage
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Sage » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:20 pm

morerecords wrote:Why does the timing go to shit when I instantiate plug ins?
Because plugins will always add latency as they need to process the signal, even when direct monitoring. This has always been an issue I've experienced when trying to use computers to process audio in a live environment.

su
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:09 am

Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by su » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:07 pm

H20nly wrote:
morerecords wrote:Here is a 24 page post with people having similar/the same issues as myself:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884

Unfortunately, that thread veers off into trolling and people attacking each other...
Maybe we could try to discuss solutions and workarounds here?

Anyone?
did you read the whole thread or just part of it? the last few pages or so everyone seems to be getting along just fine... if you're going to skim, try jumping in at page 22 here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=185884&start=315

scroll down to the post from theophilus. can't miss it, it's a giant screen shot. he posted some really good test results and others are starting to identify specific reasons in their chains for PDC errors - not just "this doesn't work grrrrowl growl"... like... some people.
in addition, the other thread is really now focused specifically on pdc associated with automation. Just in case anyone was jumping to that thread hoping to get some insight about pdc and hardware.

djadonis206
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by djadonis206 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:13 pm

ze2be wrote:Wel, I only use one hardware synth, the virus Ti. I usually record it to audio as soon as possible...Typically I record a bunch of long, progressing audio clips in session. Sometimes a few versions of each sound. Then I crop them to the parts I want to keep. After that I spread them out to individual tracks...
This. Not only is it the most efficient and least taxing on my system but it also helps me move forward in my song creation.

Print to audio as soon as I can and move on - saves time and energy
Ableton | Elektron

Music

Tone Deft
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:23 pm

did you try the demo before you bought Live?

this shit's expensive.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

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