I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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friend_kami
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by friend_kami » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:31 pm

Sage wrote:
morerecords wrote:I wish opening a linear eq on a simpler track did not fuck up the timing of the neighboring midi sequence track which is traveling to my rack synths.
If you're not having timing issues when not using a linear phase EQ, this may be the cause of the problem as you're using it at the wrong time for the wrong task.

great solution. :roll:

morerecords
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:40 pm

Dont tell me how to make music or what is correct. That's bullshit.. Some of the best music comes from experimenting. It's only one example anyway. Substitute linear eq for pitch shifter, or vintage compressor emulation. Feel better?

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:50 pm

deva wrote:
CooCooCaCha wrote:
theophilus wrote: ok, so where i'm coming from i guess, is that for every one of those categories, i know of decent, zero-latency solutions. so i don't see why this couldn't be possible in live. not only that, i don't have a lot of expensive plugins, and among the list i've measured, i have very few that would even cause this problem. so i'm really wondering which plugins are giving you the most grief? and really hoping i'll get more people who actually do own those pro plugins to chime in and give their info (i really need to start that thread, will do it right away)
ANY tempo-sensitive third-party effect is going to shift off the grid if there are other, third-party, plugins before it. It's a simple as that.
Doesn't that 3rd party plug-in before it have to have some latency to throw the following tempo based effect off?
That's correct. It simply isn't true that a tempo based effect will go off by having any third-party plug-ins before it. Most plug-ins do not have any significant latency (like under 0.1ms). Only those with complex algorithms or a lookahead function for dynamics or something will cause problems. Unfortunately it appears that Max for Live devices do have significant latency, making them less ideal to use in Live than third party plug-ins.
Professional Shark Jumper.

Sage
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Sage » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:59 pm

morerecords wrote:Dont tell me how to make music or what is correct. That's bullshit.. Some of the best music comes from experimenting. It's only one example anyway. Substitute linear eq for pitch shifter, or vintage compressor emulation. Feel better?
I'm not telling you how to make music, just that one particular tool may be the wrong choice. You can go onto any DAW forum and find threads on LPEQs & latency, so sometimes its user error and not the DAW (Might not be in this case and I am fully aware of Live's own timing issues), part of experimenting is that not everything works or sounds good, so thats a ridiculous statement to make. What pitchshifters and compressor emulations are we talking about here?

Sage
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Sage » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:09 pm

friend_kami wrote:
Sage wrote:
morerecords wrote:I wish opening a linear eq on a simpler track did not fuck up the timing of the neighboring midi sequence track which is traveling to my rack synths.
If you're not having timing issues when not using a linear phase EQ, this may be the cause of the problem as you're using it at the wrong time for the wrong task.

great solution. :roll:
Sometimes solutions are simple, kind of stupid and easily overlooked.

Machinesworking
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:22 pm

Sage wrote:
morerecords wrote:I wish opening a linear eq on a simpler track did not fuck up the timing of the neighboring midi sequence track which is traveling to my rack synths.
If you're not having timing issues when not using a linear phase EQ, this may be the cause of the problem as you're using it at the wrong time for the wrong task.
Not wanting to enter this quagmire again, but this is a simple fact that's been ignored this entire conversation.
For instance PSP offer three versions of Neon for various tasks: track mixing, bus mixing and mastering. In their own descriptions and suggestion they flatly state that the non-linear "Mix" version is for individual tracks and that the surgically linear version is for the Master track or for two track mastering etc.

...and the reasons for this? because linear phase equalizers introduce massive amounts of latency that cause issues with DAWs etc.

morerecords
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:31 pm

It's an arbitrary example, I have never used a linear eq. Just substitute with any other latency inducing plug in, one which will not help you feel superior or aid any of you in makimg condescending.replies.

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:56 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Not wanting to enter this quagmire again, but this is a simple fact that's been ignored this entire conversation.
Not ignored; just beside the point. As was the External Instrument suggestion, the admonition regarding Direct Monitoring, and Sage's reprimand about how the thread was really about routing hardware through plugins (and admittedly, my own suggestion that it was about Live's internal audio being out of time with the hardware due to PDC timing discrepancies).

Anyone who has been working in professional audio for any serious length of time is likely aware that running high latency plugins in high quality modes will introduce latency to a signal chain, as will running external hardware through software plugins. The OP has clarified that the issue is with how Live 8's PDC is moving externally routed Midi alongside the audio.

The real solution would be for Ableton to remove any midi routed to external hardware out of the PDC equation, while keeping the midi routed to internal instruments compensated, and to allow for the compensation to only happen once, on the return side. Then one could choose to either use the External Instrument feature, or to manage it manually outside of Live.

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:44 pm

Man, been really considering the scope of all of this again over the last half hour...

Midi out of sync; Automation out of sync; Tempo based effects out of sync; GUI out of sync; Sends out of sync...

I mean, seriously. Crazy, man.

vinz89
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by vinz89 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:53 pm

Yeah, all the music that has been done in Live is totally out of sync... you can hear it everywhere... :D

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:08 pm

And from a certain vantage point, earth is just a quiet pale blue dot with no discernible activity. Of course, that's not how it feels on Times Square or at Grand Central Station during rush hour. I guess it just depends on one's perspective from which they are looking at the problem, as to whether there is one or not.

Machinesworking
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:17 pm

morerecords wrote:It's an arbitrary example, I have never used a linear eq. Just substitute with any other latency inducing plug in, one which will not help you feel superior or aid any of you in makimg condescending.replies.
Not at all trying to condescend, just trying to figure out what a solution is, within the framework of Ableton Live.
You tell me that you wish Live didn't introduce latency when using a linear phase EQ and not with any malice I'm going to suggest you don't use a linear phase EQ in a way they aren't intended to be used in. Why on earth would that be considered condescending?

A large part of the problem with this whole conversation has been the lack of information coming from you as to why you 'need' to direct monitor hardware synths that are being triggered by MIDI notes generated by Live, that are syncing up with audio files on tracks in Live, with latency introducing plug ins that mess up the timing. I've never said that it's not a problem for you, and most people trying to help here aren't, though the suggestions for the most part are to try something different, which has been the subject of curt rebuttals on your part.... as if people don't understand and therefore are being ignorant and arrogant. It might not be how you intended to come across, but it's definitely how you are coming across.

What you're trying to do is at once both basic and at the same time complex and taxing, at least from my perspective. I totally understand the desire to save the printing to audio of external hardware until the end (I like being able to carve the sound in the synth in a premix way etc.), but at the same time it's obvious that PDC is going to introduce some slop to the equation if you want to live monitor the tracks, and to me anyway having to go through and figure out how to fix it is a PITA that I'm not willing to go through, I would rather use one of the solutions mentioned in this thread. If you do find a solution please let us know, but in all honesty the reason you might not is because most people monitor hardware through the DAW where PDC will work properly, and print to audio before they start layering enough plug ins onto tracks to mess up the timing between direct monitoring and Live's internal tracks, or print to audio all tracks with plug ins if they want to record MIDI without PDC and latency etc. So Ableton will not give it top priority.

Sage
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Sage » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 pm

Akshara wrote:And from a certain vantage point, earth is just a quiet pale blue dot with no discernible activity. Of course, that's not how it feels on Times Square or at Grand Central Station during rush hour. I guess it just depends on one's perspective from which they are looking at the problem, as to whether there is one or not.
I don't think anyone is claiming there isn't a problem. Just this seems more of an example of when not to use high-latency inducing plugins than issues with Live (To dismiss it as "beside the point" is focussing too much on one issue that isn't necessarily the core problem in this scenario, even Logic tells you not to use latency inducing plugins in the tracking stages!). In regards to Live, how much is it exacerbating user "error" with its own issues?

morerecords
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by morerecords » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:33 pm

Yawn.

Akshara
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Re: I give up, Ableton, I really do. PDC/timing/hardware issues,

Post by Akshara » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:21 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Why on earth would that be considered condescending?
For me, "a <plugin which causes latency> will create latency when inserted," is one of those "obvious answer is obvious" kind of things, and comes across a bit like telling a marathon runner how to tie their shoes properly. I just presume that someone with success managing a direct monitoring solution likely falls into the marathon runner category.
Machinesworking wrote:...at the same time it's obvious that PDC is going to introduce some slop to the equation if you want to live monitor the tracks
Agreed. This is so obvious, that to anyone working within professional audio, it really doesn't need mentioning.
Machinesworking wrote:If you do find a solution please let us know, but in all honesty the reason you might not is because most people monitor hardware through the DAW where PDC will work properly...
This may be your experience and is true from your vantage point; yet the majority of situations that I have encountered which use a combination of outboard hardware and in-the-box software use some form of direct monitoring solution, at least to some degree, whether through a console or a hardware interface.

That was the point of my comment about the studio which you quoted and didn't like earlier, likely due to my equally condescending tone in reply. Yet truly, there are situations where direct monitoring is either preferred or necessary, where software monitoring is either not possible or not desired. I just got the feeling that the OP fell into this category, based on the original request and the curt rebuttals. It was actually the, "Jesus, there is no reason to post on forums..." comment which made me think this. Just had that familiar ring about it.

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