PDC -- what is it? why has it never bothered me?

[Sarrova-Q]

Commit to audio and move on...i really dont understand why this is hard for some people

... But I do think PDC is a relative big issue because other DAWs seem to be able to handle timing much better.
Also, if you use a lot of timed automation (i do) in complex sets, it's not always possible to bounce to audio over and over again.
The automation of your plugin will be out of time even after you bounce so that's unacceptable.
...

+ the fact that you can't play LIVE after you bounced to audio.
I like to tweak my synths to the right moment when doing live sets, and now that you can record automation directly into clips I'd like that to be perfectly in sync.

[sdfak1234]

if you think bouncing is the solution to this problem, then you don't understand the problem. The ramifications are much more serious, bouncing does not fix anything and the process of bouncing is workflow killing. The reason why is has never bothered you is probably because your work lacks precision and a need for reproduction. If you think you don't need it, then you need to accept the fact that you are someone who is willing to accept a lack of precision, and you are someone who is willing to accept your work being altered, a process as simple as adding an effect to an automated track can change what you've written. These 'insignificant' changes accumulate and add up. This may not 'bother' you, but it is a serious problem. I've come to realise Ableton actually do consider this a serious problem, I'm sure there are many who aren't 'bothered' by it.. I laugh at this because I don't think these people can even care to be bothered, if you really got to grips with the ramifications and realised what it actually meant, then you might be bothered.

[sdfak1234]

Commit to audio and move on...i really dont understand why this is hard for some people

You 'commit' to things when you are finished working on them, the PDC problem is during the production process. I'm sure there will be many posts that will help you understand why it is so hard for some people, keep trying, you'll get there in the end.

[Tone Deft]

do not make personal attacks, it only dilutes the issue.

Commit to audio and move on...i really dont understand why this is hard for some people

everyone works differently. some never exercise use cases that are buggy, some run straight into them and get really frustrated. taximouse comes to mind. very nice gigging musician, just wanted to use a looper, had problems, moved on. others make a living with Live and are fine with it.

[djadonis206]

I see where you're coming from however, there's no reason you can't have multiple takes of live recording and tweaking. I find myself recording up to 3 or 4 minutes of tweaking, only to go in and loop maybe 16 or 32 bars of audio. Live, unlike Logic, makes recording and looping unbelievably easy. But I can understand the hesitation, it took me a while to commit. But now, I couldn't imagine making music any other way. I like it, I record it, and I move on

[sdfak1234]

others make a living with Live and are fine with it.

This point is valid but is rather mute when we are talking about improvements and future versions.. .if people are happy with Live 5,6,7,8 functionality they are welcome to keep on using whatever old or current version they want, that is not a problem... people are clearly talking about improvements and how the program could improve and I have a problem with the attitude of some people who almost state this is not something that should be improved. I don't think this can be argued, the only debate seems to be over how serious it actually is for people... I'm not even listening to the people who think it isn't a problem, as I said, Ableton get it, they've acknowledged it, and BTW, there is still a chance to see this in Live 9.

[sdfak1234]

I see where you're coming from however, there's no reason you can't have multiple takes of live recording and tweaking. I find myself recording up to 3 or 4 minutes of tweaking, only to go in and loop maybe 16 or 32 bars of audio. Live, unlike Logic, makes recording and looping unbelievably easy. But I can understand the hesitation, it took me a while to commit. But now, I couldn't imagine making music any other way. I like it, I record it, and I move on

I think everyone doing this kind of work does the commit thing, it's become necessary due to limitations but the point is that it doesn't have to be, and people like myself who have been using this approach for years find it annoying that we are still doing it this way.. and by the way, if you're committing audio then you are writing music differently, based on those limitations, so it's not even a workaround, it's actually a completely different work process that will have different (constrained) results. So these things aren't mutually exclusive, lack of automation compensation will effect your workflow in a destructive fashion, limiting musical expression.

[mholloway]

if you think bouncing is the solution to this problem, then you don't understand the problem. The ramifications are much more serious, bouncing does not fix anything and the process of bouncing is workflow killing. The reason why is has never bothered you is probably because your work lacks precision and a need for reproduction. If you think you don't need it, then you need to accept the fact that you are someone who is willing to accept a lack of precision, and you are someone who is willing to accept your work being altered, a process as simple as adding an effect to an automated track can change what you've written. These 'insignificant' changes accumulate and add up. This may not 'bother' you, but it is a serious problem. I've come to realise Ableton actually do consider this a serious problem, I'm sure there are many who aren't 'bothered' by it.. I laugh at this because I don't think these people can even care to be bothered, if you really got to grips with the ramifications and realised what it actually meant, then you might be bothered.

I said it didn't bother me in my OP yes, but I'm not the person who said bouncing was a solution; please check who you are actually responding to before you start telling me my work lacks precision, etc. Thanks.

Now I'll get back to writing my unprecise music.

[sdfak1234]

I said it didn't bother me in my OP yes, but I'm not the person who said bouncing was a solution; please check who you are actually responding to before you start telling me my work lacks precision, etc. Thanks.

Now I'll get back to writing my unprecise music.

Lousy attitude here and I think it's you that need to check responses. I was replying to multiple posts. I was writing in reply to the question of this thread and I stick by my response. This is actually really simple. The PDC problems create in-precision so by saying it doesn't bother you, this is tantamount to saying to you don't mind if your work is in-precise.. Nobody is talking about your work. There was no comment made towards you, I'm sure you don't consider your music in-precise, but if you're wondering why it has never bothered you.. I'm saying it should, but if you accept in-precision, then you write 'unprecise' music, simple as that, suck it up.

BTW, this will be the last response I make to anyone with attitude, I'm not in the mood for it, so don't waste your time typing lame responses.

[SpeedKing]

These PDC threads makes me glad I only have a few plugins I use (which don't have this issue) and the only external instruments I have are guitars and vocals, which are just straight audio. This seems like a crappy thing to have to deal with.

[sdfak1234]

I said it didn't bother me in my OP yes, but I'm not the person who said bouncing was a solution; please check who you are actually responding to before you start telling me my work lacks precision, etc. Thanks.

Now I'll get back to writing my unprecise music.

Let me put this to you... you asked why is has never bothered you... do you actually understand the issue and it still does not bother you or do you simply not understand the issue enough to know whether it bothers you or not? because your answer to this question will determine whether your music lacks precision.

There are people that understand the issue and have done for years, they can work around the issue and make sure their work is 'precise'... but if you did not know about it, then you've probably run into it at times without realising and Ableton has destroyed your precision without you even being aware of it.. this is why people are so angry about it. Nobody is saying you are not precise or that it is your fault... so your original response was kinda inappropriate there.

[sporkles]

These debates never cease to amaze me. There's always someone who - because they don't see any personal use for a suggested feature or because they haven't experienced a specific bug - has to step in and declare that things are fine as they are, "learn to work around it," followed by inspiring anecdotes of how hard these things were 20 or 30 years ago.

Seriously. We're talking about computer software, here. Its makers completely depend on continually working on new features and updates. The next version - whether it's a bugfix or a new, paid version, needs to bring something that makes the users want to upgrade and keep using the software. I've experienced the PDC issue from time to time, but it has never been a huge and recurring problem for me. That doesn't mean I don't want the Abes to fix it. Live is ALL about keeping things in sync - of COURSE they should be working on ensuring that audio and automation correspond.

Any suggestion that makes certain operations simpler and more efficient gets a thumbs up from me; I'll leave it to the Abes to find a reasonable way to implement it. The PDC issue isn't even a question or a flashy "feature" at all - just functionality that should work.

That said, PD probably is something that doesn't exist in your world until you've experienced it.

[mholloway]

Let me put this to you... you asked why is has never bothered you... do you actually understand the issue and it still does not bother you or do you simply not understand the issue enough to know whether it bothers you or not? because your answer to this question will determine whether your music lacks precision.

I have never encountered a problem with PDC while using Live *that I was aware of*. I believe I'm of the same mindset as Tarekith, who posted in a related thread:

"I feel sorry for the people who do such detailed editing that they are affected by this, but it's not something I've ever noticed or had an issue with in my workflow."

That pretty much sums it up for me, too. I never denied it as an issue for others -- obviously it is. It hasn't been for me. I've read the numerous descriptions and I see how it could cause problems, sure. That's why I started this thread, to understand the problem better, not to deny it exists. I'm not suddenly bothered by it just because people have explained the problems it causes them-- I understand the situation better, and it continues to not be an issue for me. If that means I create Imprecise Music, then so be it. So far, none of my fans have called me out on it. Phew.

[sdfak1234]

So far, none of my fans have called me out on it. Phew.

Well here in lies a telling remark, your fans would never notice it, it's not for them to notice, it's not like something happens to the sound and it musically sounds wrong, when automation goes out of sync it's usually such a small shift it's barely noticeable, and only noticeable in reference to what you've already written, technically speaking, it is no longer what you originally wrote, it is what you wrote, slightly out of sync, in most cases it creates no major change to sound, but it's still not precise, so it's not precise, I hope you realise the question of precision is not really up for debate, it's just a fact, acknowledged by Ableton... when we're talking about precision we're talking really small, like samples, but these accumulate into bigger problem and I don't want to deal with happy accidents, I want absolute precision and that is not an unrealistic expectation for any digital music software. Especially something as advanced as Ableton Live in 2012.

[mholloway]

get your sarcasm radar checked.