LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

[Akshara]

I've a kindling hope that perchance the silence which fell upon all things PDC is a side effect of the beta NDA; and an imagined dream of a revelatory explanation with discussion taking place in the beta forum. "Give me hope in silence..."

[Nemou]

no news is good news

lol

They've already released an extensive feature list so if it's not on that I'd be surprised to see it in the final product. The only way if they can actually see how disappointed most of us are by not seeing it and decide to haul a$$ and fix it... but I doubt it. Me sad.

[hec]

Like I've said before, Ableton should consider a Live Pro and charge a premium. They could then use that money to address the features that pro market needs - the best low latency, PDC, ADC, Hardware Delay Compensation, Eucon, Mixer DSP etc.

The truth is that a big percentage of Live users could care less about some of these features and rightfully so, it doesn't affect them.

Of course, then you'll have the same problem that Avid has and people will be complaining that Pro features should be included in all versions. You just can't win in this business because people don't understand that you get what you pay for.

If you want these big time features you have to pay the big dollars and go to Pro Tools HD. Expecting Ableton to develop this is nothing more than wishful thinking and trust me I'd like them more than the next man.

Adding this from my other post on this topic:

For those of you who don't understand why some hit makers say Live sounds bad - this is why. It's not that the actual sound quality is bad, it's how the program handles audio that leads to an end result that is sub par. Imagine a 60 track full out production with this happening all over the place. When the timing is wrong things don't "Hit" the same way. Don't get me wrong, great records are made on Live everyday and people will continue to do so but the simple fact that what you do doesn't translate into what you hear is why Ableton continues to be a toy in certain pro circles.

[leisuremuffin]

wow, that post is some serious lulz.

good luck making those pro level hits!


.lm.

[leisuremuffin]

just some notes:

pro's were making hits before pdc.
pro's were making hits before plug ins.
pro's were making hits before digital audio.


and frankly, i'm firmly in the camp of people who want the kind of pros that just want another pro tools to keep their fucking hands off of my performance instrument. I want ableton to continue on focusing on the live performance aspect of the software, that's their core market and they'd do well to remember it.


i write and mix stuff in live too, and the PDC issues have never stopped me from doing quality work.


.lm.

[sdfak1234]

just some notes:

pro's were making hits before pdc.
pro's were making hits before plug ins.
pro's were making hits before digital audio.


and frankly, i'm firmly in the camp of people who want the kind of pros that just want another pro tools to keep their fucking hands off of my performance instrument. I want ableton to continue on focusing on the live performance aspect of the software, that's their core market and they'd do well to remember it.


i write and mix stuff in live too, and the PDC issues have never stopped me from doing quality work.


.lm.

I know you mean well with this post, but I've got to say I find this completely overstated, missing so many points, highly uninspired notes that make no relevant arguments to the discussion we've been having. I'm not interested in making hits, I'm not interested in using past technologies, I'm not interested in looking backwards at all, these discussions are in the spirit of improvement and progress... I'm sorry but I don't feel you've contributed anything of value to this discussion. I don't think you've even read the thread properly. These issues have nothing to do with your 'fucking performance instrument'. If you want to use old technology you're welcome to do so, but things aren't going to stop changing and people will continue to seek improvement. You've clearly missed the big point that Ableton know about this issue and have pledged to fix it, it is happening regardless of your opinion, the question is whether it will be fixed in a reasonable amount of time.

[leisuremuffin]

was just responding to the ridiculous post by hec, not the whole thread or anything else in the thread.


i don't have any skin in the game on this as it simply doesn't affect me one way or another. but i can't read some retarded shit about "pros" and "hit makers" without throwing up in my mouth a little and then saying something about it.


.lm.

[sdfak1234]

was just responding to the ridiculous post by hec.


i don't have any skin in the game on this as it simply doesn't affect me one way or another. but i can't read some retarded shit about "pro's" and "hit makers" without throwing up in my mouth a little and then saying something about it.


.lm.

Well do you want to get into that?? because I'm happy to have this discussion with you. I'm not going to discuss the level of my personal production and what I've done for a living, but I can tell you it's enough. I don't believe Ableton is a professional application if it doesn't compensate automation. We've been having most of this discussion on another thread. I don't care if people have made 'hits' on Ableton, that's beside the point. This issue is tantamount to Ableton altering your recorded work ever so slightly due to not compensating properly, whether it comes out as a hit record is besides the point, it's not exactly what you wrote, therefore Ableton is not precise, if it's not precise then it is not professional. It is full of professional features that people use as part of their profession but we are having a discussion/argument on the basis that Ableton is fundamentally flawed at a core level which makes it fundamentally unprofessional... that's what we're all up in arms about. So what you've written is flat wrong to begin with, but it also doesn't make sense on many levels... it's like you don't get the discussion.

[sdfak1234]

was just responding to the ridiculous post by hec, not the whole thread or anything else in the thread.
.lm.

I don't want to be a dick about this, but this is a huge ongoing topic that is complex on many levels and you've really got to dig a little deeper into this issue before commenting on it... I think a lot of people skim through this topic and wrap their head around only one aspect of it, the reality is that this problem is systemic, permeating and far reaching on a technical and philosophical level... and it's deeply important to people, we need stand united on it.... if you don't care about this issue, I think you're making a mistake, thats my opinion but I've seen people misunderstand this many times, but once you understand how fundamental it is.... if you can't see why it's important to capture your work perfectly, then I don't know how to explain it, I mean this isn't like analog errors on tape, like degradation, it's actually altering the fine mechanics of your work, it's like basic artist/producer stuff that your work original unaltered idea is what is captured.

[leisuremuffin]

and just in case you think i'm just some teenage kid fucking around with dubstep loop packs, i'm not.

i worked as a tracking and mixing engineer for many years and taught at SAE. I've also been a performing electronic musician for 17 years.

there are a shit ton of options for DAWs to track bands and make huge multi-track mixdowns in, there are much fewer options for a DAW that works like a sequencing instrument. PDC as it stands in live right now is perfectly fine for how i choose to use the program.


feel free to get all up in arms about whatever you want to. you think it's a fundamental flaw, i think that's a bunch of horseshit. You have tools right now with live 8 that were unheard of when i started using a computer to write music. If you can't come up with quality output with it i don't think the problem is the software.



.lm.

[sdfak1234]

feel free to get all up in arms about whatever you want to. you think it's a fundamental flaw, i think that's a bunch of horseshit. You have tools right now with live 8 that were unheard of when i started using a computer to write music. If you can't come up with quality output with it i don't think the problem is the software.
.lm.

classic cliche response, like your other one. someone was just making fun of this classic response, citing what you used to do... man, one day you're going to wake up, maybe one of your students will explain it to you. I'm laughing my ass of right now, because you've actually gone and written something that most of us KNOW is wrong, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. You CLEARLY don't get it, hopefully one day you will so why don't you just go and write your hit records with your old technology and stop wasting our time writing boring nonsense on message boards, you don't belong in this discussion.

[leisuremuffin]

what did i write that is "wrong?"

I'm certainly not denying that a problem exists, i'm simply saying that it is not the end of the world, and won't stop you from producing a quality output. It is not, in my opinion, problem that makes the program unusable. In fact, there isn't a single other piece of software out there that will let me do what i want to do with such a high level of customizable real time control.


.lm.

[sdfak1234]

what did i write that is "wrong?"

I'm certainly not denying that a problem exists, i'm simply saying that it is not the end of the world, and won't stop you from producing a quality output. It is not, in my opinion, problem that makes the program unusable. In fact, there isn't a single other piece of software out there that will let me do what i want to do with such a high level of customizable real time control.


.lm.

No buddy, you said the idea that it was a fundamental flaw was a 'bunch of horseshit'. PDC altering your work is a fundamental flaw, I cannot even see how this up for debate, it's like you've completely missed the point here.

I agree that it isn't the end of the world, also I agree that there isn't other software out there that does what live does, that doesn't stop it from being fundamentally flawed... I just need to reiterate again that Ableton are fully aware of this problem and I'm pretty sure they understand the scope as well. I think some people are having trouble with the idea that a problems at the microscopic level can create macroscopic problems, but even without this, it's just fundamentally wrong on a musical level.

[andydes]

Seriously, the people who are fighting for this (who I'm completely behind) would do well to think about their choice of words.

Even if it's not what you mean, as soon as you start saying things like "unprofessional", it comes across as implying that people who don't have issues with it are also unprofessional.

Then then thread turns into a big messy pile of shit.

[leisuremuffin]

what did i write that is "wrong?"

I'm certainly not denying that a problem exists, i'm simply saying that it is not the end of the world, and won't stop you from producing a quality output. It is not, in my opinion, problem that makes the program unusable. In fact, there isn't a single other piece of software out there that will let me do what i want to do with such a high level of customizable real time control.


.lm.

No buddy, you said the idea that it was a fundamental flaw was a 'bunch of horseshit'. PDC altering your work is a fundamental flaw, I cannot even see how this up for debate, it's like you've completely missed the point here.

I agree that it isn't the end of the world, also I agree that there isn't other software out there that does what live does, that doesn't stop it from being fundamentally flawed... I just need to reiterate again that Ableton are fully aware of this problem and I'm pretty sure they understand the scope as well. I think some people are having trouble with the idea that a problems at the microscopic level can create macroscopic problems, but even without this, it's just fundamentally wrong on a musical level.

Alright cheif, and i stand by that, if you think it's a fundamental flaw, that's your opinion. It has never affected one of my live performances, and has been a minor annoyance in production a very small handfull of times over the past few years. hardly seems fundamental to me. please, by all means ableton, fix this shit. but if you really can't use the software the way it is i weep for you.


.lm.