Theory! Help with scales and modes, please.

[Captain Naegeli!]

So I've seen all kinds of tutorials on learning scales and the modes of the scale but they are always daunting and very confusing. I understand scales; constructing them, how they work, so on and so on. My problem is more of the mode area. For example the Dorian mode starts on the second tone of a scale while using all the same tones in said scale to construct the rest of the pattern. I have seen it like that but I have also seen it multiple times where they flat a few notes when changing between modes. I am lost when it comes to modes. Any help?

[doghouse]

Go to the library, go to the section that has the music books and find one that discusses theory, scales and modes.

[Zygi]

Seen this ? http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... fcd1ca1e4f

[sowhoso]

i believe the best way to learn about modes is by listening to and learning music written using modes, like Coldplay's Clocks

I have seen it like that but I have also seen it multiple times where they flat a few notes when changing between modes. I am lost when it comes to modes. Any help?

they must be "borrowing" the way you would borrow a V7 chord from another key (I - V7/IV - IV)

or more likely they are staying with the same tonal center. e.g., D major = 2 sharps, D phrygian = 2 flats

D dorian has no flats/sharps
C dorian has 2 flats, Bb and Eb
E dorian has 2 sharps, F# and C#

just like major/minor scales have a specific pattern of whole and half steps so also the modal scales

aeolian is exactly like natural minor

[Captain Naegeli!]

i believe the best way to learn about modes is by listening to and learning music written using modes, like Coldplay's Clocks

I have seen it like that but I have also seen it multiple times where they flat a few notes when changing between modes. I am lost when it comes to modes. Any help?

they must be "borrowing" the way you would borrow a V7 chord from another key (I - V7/IV - IV)

or more likely they are staying with the same tonal center. e.g., D major = 2 sharps, D phrygian = 2 flats

D dorian has no flats/sharps
C dorian has 2 flats, Bb and Eb
E dorian has 2 sharps, F# and C#

just like major/minor scales have a specific pattern of whole and half steps so also the modal scales

aeolian is exactly like natural minor

I've learned most of what I know about modes from The Guitar Grimoire. So for C Dorian, I would flat the 3rd and the 7th? Thats goes for all dorian mode scales, correct?

[Tone Deft]

So I've seen all kinds of tutorials on learning scales and the modes of the scale but they are always daunting and very confusing. I understand scales; constructing them, how they work, so on and so on. My problem is more of the mode area. For example the Dorian mode starts on the second tone of a scale while using all the same tones in said scale to construct the rest of the pattern. I have seen it like that but I have also seen it multiple times where they flat a few notes when changing between modes. I am lost when it comes to modes. Any help?

sounds like you're very close. keep banging your head on it, you'll have this epiphany when it will all make sense because it's not all that complicated. the application of it can be tough but you're pretty much there.

sharps and flats only change when you change keys. modes are just looking at the same key from different angles. some angles (modes) are sad, some happy, some are bluesy, some are country sounding etc.

strive to learn each mode as its own scale. I too use patterns but real music theorists cringe at that, it's lazy.

stringtapper posts great advice on this stuff.

[sounddevisor]

I've learned most of what I know about modes from The Guitar Grimoire. So for C Dorian, I would flat the 3rd and the 7th? Thats goes for all dorian mode scales, correct?

That is absolutely correct. A more general approach would be to say that, for any Dorian scale you want to construct, start with the Major scale for that root, and flat the 3rd and 7th tones of the scale. A Dorian would be A Major with a flat 3rd (C instead of C#) and flat 7th (G instead of G#,) etc. F Dorian would have an Ab as the 3rd tone, and an Eb as the 7th tone.

Even more general - a scale and a mode are essentially the same thing. In theory, you might differentiate between them by saying that a scale is a set of notes in a certain order, whereas a mode is that same set of notes in any order, but for practical purposes they are the same. In your OP, you said "the Dorian mode starts on the second tone of a scale...", which I would revise to say "To find the Dorian mode, play a Major scale starting on its second step." So to find Bb Dorian, you could play an Ab Major scale starting on Bb - that's Bb Dorian.

Once you understand how each mode differs from the Major scale, you can construct any mode on any root note. If you use C Major (easy, since, on a piano keyboard, it's all white keys,) you find the following modes:

- starting on D (2nd tone of C Major) gives you D Dorian - with the formula (relative to Major) of b3 and b7
- starting on E (3rd tone of C Major) gives you E Phrygian - b2, b3, b6, b7
- starting on F (4th tone) gives you Lydian - #4
- starting on G (5th tone) gives you Mixolydian - b7
- starting on A (6th tone) gives you Aeolian - b3, b6, b7
- starting on B (7th tone) gives you Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

Now you can use those formulae to build any mode on any root. It may take some practice to be able to do this "on the fly" in a useful, musical way, but you have all the information you need, it's just a question of doing it until it becomes second nature.

[Tone Deft]

^nicely done.

Even more general - a scale and a mode are essentially the same thing. In theory, you might differentiate between them by saying that a scale is a set of notes in a certain order, whereas a mode is that same set of notes in any order, but for practical purposes they are the same.

you can extend this to chords. a Dm add9 chord for example can be decoded once you learn which mode goes with each type of chord and what things like sus4 etc mean.

one thing that tripped me out in learning this stuff is how to write out the Major scale. every single letter (not note) from A to G is represented as either a natural, sharp or flat. some can be written in both sharp and flat some only in sharp or flat. there are some other patterns that emerge (adjacent scales only differ by adding one # or flat) but I'd rather type less than obfuscate the point. I've spent many work meetings writing out the scales, it looks like you're taking notes.

Major Scale in Every Key
C = C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
D = D - E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D
E = E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E
F = F - G - A - Bb - C - D - E - F
G = G - A - B - C - D - E - F# - G
A = A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A
B = B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A# - B
C# = C# - D# - E# (=F) - F# - G# - A# - B# (=C) - C#
Db = Db - Eb - F - Gb - Ab - Bb - C - Db
Eb = Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb - C - D -Eb
F# = F# - G# - A# - B - C# - D# - E# (=F) - F#
Gb = Gb - Ab - Bb - Cb (=B) - Db - Eb - F - Gb
Ab = Ab - Bb - C - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab
Bb = Bb - C - D - Eb - F - G - A - Bb


/ramble. lazy rest day at home. writing this out helps me remember theory. it's good practice because people on the forum will check your work, tough crowd.

[Buleriachk]

You might want to look at my "Music Theory for Flamenco" on my website.
Covers Major, Minor, and Phrygian Mode (as used for Flamenco), including Circle of Fifths, etc....

[jimmynitcher]

My advice would be don't learn modes as 'relative' to the major scale - I did for about a year and realized it's actually more work. I got Fretboard Essentials by Alex Cortes and he has a great way of teaching how to hear each one by showing how they differ from the pentatonic scales which many guitarists (including me) already know.

[beatz01]

^nicely done.

+1

[sowhoso]

My advice would be don't learn modes as 'relative' to the major scale...

yes

learn what chords are the most important for distinguishing each mode (just like I IV V in a major scale). then write a chord progression with those chords and improvise over them on your fave instrument (be sure not to alter any scale steps)

each mode has it's own mood/flavor/color whatever and this exercise will help to hear that

again, learn some songs that use modes