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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
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Location: South of London
djadonis206 wrote:
Push or the APC 40 seems more like a logical comparison. Not Push or Maschine

If you're seriously trying to move away from a monitor and mouse, invest in some hardware

http://www.elektron.se

I actually disagree with this 1st statement. I think Push and Maschine can be compared as hardware controllers for Live, which is the main point of this thread and there are some obvious overlaps as well as distinctions between the two.

If you watch the video on the 1st post of this thread you can see there are a lot of similarities to what Push can do.

Your 2nd statement goes without saying really.
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
J0n35y wrote:
My concern would be that Ableton may ditch Push 1 entirely rather than adopt NI's approach of supporting two controllers (albeit that may be temporary until 2.0 appears).

Actually, NI has already made it very clear that existing controllers will always be supported:

"We are of course always looking into ideas for developing the Maschine hardware. However, it’s important to note that current compatibility with the existing controllers will always remain an important focus for us."
http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... ost1045920


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
Posts: 6473
Location: Seattle, WA.
panten wrote:
djadonis206 wrote:
Push or the APC 40 seems more like a logical comparison. Not Push or Maschine

If you're seriously trying to move away from a monitor and mouse, invest in some hardware

http://www.elektron.se

I actually disagree with this 1st statement. I think Push and Maschine can be compared as hardware controllers for Live, which is the main point of this thread and there are some obvious overlaps as well as distinctions between the two.

If you watch the video on the 1st post of this thread you can see there are a lot of similarities to what Push can do.

Your 2nd statement goes without saying really.
:)


Right on, thanks. I guess my 1st statement is based on the fact the APC 40 and Push are built specifically for Ableton Live while the Maschine isn't. It was adopted and now adapted but probably not supported by Ableton.

I've owned a couple of Maschines, big and small. I've also owned an APC. I am looking forward to Push even though I use the Elektron Analog trinity for most of my music now-a-days (Machinedrum, Octatrack, and Analog 4)+ a Virus.

No matter how you cut it, these are exciting times for hardware and software

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1322
The confusion here seems to stem from the fact that there are two different things being discussed:

1. The way Maschine works as a software/hardware combo with total control over its own software (which has its own session view with scenes and clips, which always had realtime recording of clip modulation) from its dedicated hardware can be compared to how Live 9 will work with Push.

2. Maschine also works as a Live controller. Whether it's officially supported by Ableton or not, Maschine has always included a Live controller template from the very beginning. In fact, it was the first controller to have the Live clip launcher capability even before APC40 was released.

So, considering that Maschine is both a viable alternative to Live's session view and drum racks (and has the advantage of providing a mouseless workflow) and a Live controller at the same time, it makes sense that Maschine and Push are being compared, especially those looking for more of an all-in-one solution (even though nothing really is) or those looking for more of a hands-on workflow that doesn't involve using a mouse or staring at a computer screen.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
Posts: 6473
Location: Seattle, WA.
By that logic, can we compare the new MPC's series to Push

Is Push available or is this all just speculation based on YouTubes and Ableton communications about Push. Or am I missing something here?

Did it come out in the UK or Asia before North America? I'm being serious here, I want one but can't find one.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:47 am
Posts: 516
22.03.2013, maybe

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1322
djadonis206 wrote:
By that logic, can we compare the new MPC's series to Push

Not really. The new MPCs don't have the ability to be entirely mouse-free like Maschine, and they work more like MPCs (programs, tracks, sequences) instead of having a session view approach consisting of scenes and clips like Live and Maschine. Also, as MIDI controllers, they don't have the ability to create or configure your own template like Maschine does and doesn't come anywhere close to Maschine's capabilities as a Live controller.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
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Location: Seattle, WA.
I see, thanks. It seems the best thing for people to do if they're truely interested in comparing the two is wait until the March release of Push and mess around with it at their local music store. Or better yet, buy it and try it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
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Location: South of London
2 weeks to go!

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:43 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
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Location: South of London
Another Push video that tugs me back in that direction, and that shows something unique that you can't do on Maschine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Yl0aUcE54
Pads look to be super responsive too.

Push is definitely a performance tool.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:31 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1322
For the features in Live that the Push does have control over, the Push is probably going to be the best tactile controller for that until the next Live controller inevitably drops, of course. The disappointments about Push seems to stem mainly from the fact that it's not an all-in-one controller with total control over every feature of Live, especially for those who'd rather not use a mouse or those who want to be able to sample and chop in Drum Racks from the hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:52 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
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I think anyone would have a tough task trying to create a controller to control ALL aspects of Live, purely because it is such a deep & complex program with too many parameters. (you wouldn't want it any other way)

Ableton have chosen to focus more on the production/performance aspects and not on the sound design stage, but from the guys who own Push already that I've spoken to they say that it's the most fun they've had in years. Some of them are also long term Maschine users by the way.

I think I'm about 90% sold on getting Push currently and will just accept that doing any sample chopping, sound design etc will be done with my 3rd hand. If the guys who have it already are having a lot of fun using it even with some [essential] parts missing, imagine what it will be like if those gaps are filled in.

If worst comes to worst and I find that sample chopping is something REALLY need then I'll get Maschine also or find another solution, but later.

For me: 'Push 64 pad workflow' trumps 'Maschine & mouseless workflow with its own more limited software'. More limited than a DAW I should stressThere is of course the finger test but I don't think that's going to be an issue based on all the YouTube vids now kicking around. http://www.reddit.com/r/abletonpushvideos/

Thanks to everyone on this thread for debate and info btw it's really helped me thrash out some pros and cons on both sides.

Is it the 5th March yet? :(

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
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panten wrote:
Ableton have chosen to focus more on the production/performance aspects and not on the sound design stage, but from the guys who own Push already that I've spoken to they say that it's the most fun they've had in years. Some of them are also long term Maschine users by the way.

Yeah, I can see that as it probably is the closest thing to a fully dedicated hardware anyone has experienced for Live. For me, the hands-on sampling/chopping/sound design aspect is an integral part of my production process which is why it doesn't make sense for me to choose between the two anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
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Location: South of London
I don't think it can be underestimated how powerful and creative a process sampling straight to pads or slicing using a controller can be. I certainly don't dismiss it lightly.. but this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwc3oOQ0iaE
I find really inspiring. I'm starting to understand Push and some of the reasons that Ableton chose to focus on the things they did.
Pretty incredible that he can create something like this after only spending 30mins with Push. Within a day he'll be flying. This 'Push Impressions' series of vids have really sold it to me. In this vid he only seems to touch the mouse twice but it's the guy who's not creating the track and is only to show Andreas something.

I found it funny that he gets frustrated when he can't control the clip start point. I have a feeling this is a known issue and hopefully will get rectified quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
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The more I think about Push's curious lack of control over working Drum Racks in a typical samplist approach of sampling, editing, duplicating, slicing...etc. it makes me wonder if Ableton deliberately left them out because:

A) They didn't want to step on Akai's toes by putting out something that would cannibalize the sales of the Ren/Studio, in order to have Akai agree to build it.
B) Ableton has plans to bring out a hands-on sampling and sound design focused controller designed around Drum Racks.

A seems plausible but if so, that might make B unlikely. Or perhaps both is true and they just left those things out for Push in order to maintain amicable business partnerships.

Because while it would probably be incredibly difficult to create an all-in-one controller to control every feature of Live (unless Ableton made their own iPad controller app), it should definitely have been within the means of Ableton's resources and the design and form factor of Push to include at least a fuller set of controls for Drum Racks such as direct sampling to a pad, browsing/loading samples, editing waveforms, slicing/manual chopping, duplicating pads...etc. Maybe if they had more time and less pressure to get Live 9 out the door after all these years?


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