L9: Session automation recording useless in a live situation

[chapelier fou]

Hi,
the way it works (unless i missed something), the only way to record a clip automation on the fly is to 'arm automation' AND hit 'session recording'.
But hitting 'session recording' triggers clip recording in all armed tracks...and i've got like 8 armed tracks at the same time...
So is it true that you cannot JUST record session automation without recording many empty clips ?

[Timbeaux]

??? works fine for me. didnt record empty clips

[chapelier fou]

Well... this seems too big to be true... i must be missing something...

[aioffermann]

Yea I'd like to know this as well.

[chapelier fou]

sorry but can someone confirm this behavior ?
Timbeaux, how do you manage to have it not recording clips in every armed track ?

[pepezabala]

you must be doing something wrong, I could do it fine without triggering new clips to record. I can't explain you how, as I am at work. Also there are now 4 buttons that are related to recording (global record, arm track, session automation recording, the new "new" button, and for midi we have a 5th button, the former overdub button ...) so now it's really veeeery complicated to explain what's going on.

(If they only would have added a little automation record button to the clips itself instead....but that would have been too easy apparently)

[chapelier fou]

Humm, a step by step would be welcomed...
i am pretty sure i understand the purpose of these 4 'rec' buttons.
The + is to overdub midi in arrangement. the Global rec, well Global rec. So these 2 have nothing to do with the situation.

To record a clip automation you don't simply have to enable the 'automation arming', you also have to hit the red 'O' next to NEW. Which launches recording in every armed track.

[jsn]

Hi,
the way it works (unless i missed something), the only way to record a clip automation on the fly is to 'arm automation' AND hit 'session recording'.
But hitting 'session recording' triggers clip recording in all armed tracks...and i've got like 8 armed tracks at the same time...
So is it true that you cannot JUST record session automation without recording many empty clips ?

Hi, when you are arming a track the recording will of course start in all clips, however automation is only actually recorded into the clip which is having devices in its own track automated. In other words the other armed clips in that scene should not receive the same recorded automation.

Edit: Well, that is the case with internal controls...with External control EVERY clip receives the automation. I think I begin to see your dilemma And yes, even when recording local control movements, new clips are created in EVERY armed track. Good thing I do not need multiple tracks armed simultaneously (often). Any reason you have this need? Are you playing instruments from an external controller live on those armed tracks or?

[vinz89]

Hi Chapelier,

How L9 records automation in session view:

the automation button determines wether you'll be recording automation or not, both in session and arrangement views. So turn it on
For recording automation in session view, you now have to trigger the new "session record" button:
- first click launches recording of all tracks (or just armed tracks if you choose this option in prefs)
- second click plays the scene you just recorded
- others clicks toggles midi overdub (and so automation recording) on and off
In fact it's a single switch for record/play/overdub clips and automation in session view

And yes, automation needs a clip to be recorded in session view (think clips envelopes), without a clip, where will the automation data would be recorded?

It's a bit hard getting used to this new workflow when you come from years of using L8.

IMO i think this new "record session" button is a bit useless and brings confusion to the way Live now works.
It would have been just fine to stay with the old method of L8:
- to record a single clip, trigger it's clip rec button,
- to record an entire scene, trigger the scene button with the "record scene" option activated in prefs (they just could have created a sub option here for recording all tracks and not just those which are armed for recording)
- and to overdub, use the good old OVR button.
This way we could have recorded automation like in arrangement view with the automation button activated... no need to create a new button with three functions...

Cheers

[jsn]

I could be wrong, but I think Session view automation recording was designed this way to help keep arrangement view automation and Session view automation separated. Not sure how it works internally.

Also, what Chapelier is saying is that he is arming MULTIPLE tracks and then recording automation. When doing so of course Live drops an empty clip in every empty track slot for that particular scene he is recording on. I don't think Ableton considered if someone should Arm multiple tracks and try to record automation. I do not usually do this so I have no workaround.

[humnumb]

Edit: Well, that is the case with internal controls...with External control EVERY clip receives the automation. I think I begin to see your dilemma And yes, even when recording local control movements, new clips are created in EVERY armed track.

Wow... I guess the implementation of this in Live 9 is so complicated because of the session view and the arrangement view co-existing separately?

It just makes me appreciate the elegance and simplicity of Maschine where I can just hold down the Auto Write button on the hardware to record any knob tweaks into pattern clips. And like a lot of Maschine functions, I can 'pin' the Auto Write button so that I don't even have to hold it down which frees both hands to tweak more than one knob at once. No need for 4 record buttons or having to remember to turn on/off any function in the software before it works.

[Timbeaux]

sry 4 confusing. didnt mentioned that u mean more then one channel is armed.

[jsn]

This issue is only a problem in Session view while having Multiple tracks armed for recording simultaneously. The status ARM switch tells Live whether to record on this track or not. I think it is not assumed that a user will only wish to record Session automation on a single Armed track of many armed tracks at the same time, perhaps. What is happening is that every EMPTY track slot (which is also Armed for recording) ends up with a new empty clip when one presses the Session Record button to record movements despite the user only wishing to have automation recorded in one of the armed tracks (with no new clips created in the other armed track slots). I am sure there will be a workaround in the next update. I can understand WHY multiple clips are created (Ableton assumes naturally that one wishes to record something on all Armed tracks of the session when they are armed) BUT I can also see the necessity in a live/performing situation where one might wish to trigger sounds on those armed channels/tracks while recording an automation movement on only one of the multiple armed tracks. I personally do not use it this way.

[chapelier fou]

This issue is only a problem in Session view while having Multiple tracks armed for recording simultaneously. The status ARM switch tells Live whether to record on this track or not. I think it is not assumed that a user will only wish to record Session automation on a single Armed track of many armed tracks at the same time, perhaps. What is happening is that every EMPTY track slot (which is also Armed for recording) ends up with a new empty clip when one presses the Session Record button to record movements despite the user only wishing to have automation recorded in one of the armed tracks (with no new clips created in the other armed track slots). I am sure there will be a workaround in the next update. I can understand WHY multiple clips are created (Ableton assumes naturally that one wishes to record something on all Armed tracks of the session when they are armed) BUT I can also see the necessity in a live/performing situation where one might wish to trigger sounds on those armed channels/tracks while recording an automation movement on only one of the multiple armed tracks. I personally do not use it this way.

You got it. Thanks.
So i'm not doing anything wrong. I really hope they'll consider this, since i am doing a lot of live looping : 1 input track monitored to IN and several, armed, monitor to OFF for recording. So basically, on my livesets, i can't take advantage of this feature, since it will record X empty violin/guitar/keyboard clips. VERY frustrating !

[yur2die4]

Have you noticed some of the tricky 'reset' happenings of parameters when recording or playing a fresh clip just after an automated one? I have to keep a mental note on that particular situation.