Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
androids
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:28 pm

Seems that nightmares only come out if your sample lib is large (200go and up ?)

Just tried to add a folder to my sample lib with explorer (live closed).

Launched live : it took 8 minutes to show the new folder in "places" ... 8 minutes 8O 8O


[Library size : 2.4 To, 2'267'497 Files, 113'978 Folders]

Ableton Denver
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Ableton Denver » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:07 pm

Update : My external drive has indeed failed because of the Ableton indexing. Who gets the bill?

We have identified another problem with the indexing - in short you can not use external drives with live 8.5 (we decided to stop calling it 9)

Here's the scenario:

Use an external drive, it actually gets parsed.

remove the drive, add a folder of samples to it outside of Ableton.

Reconnect drive, only 2 options are available:

1-The drive needs to be reindexed to reflect changes -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

or

2- not reindex and represents false data -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

We had a meet up last night (formerly Ableton Colorado not a generic music group celebrating all DAWs) and the overwhelming consensus was that this is indeed an anti pattern and my assumptions are correct.

To no extend the native browser function and require indexing is bad.

As to all the nay-sayers over why you use a big library / too many samples - let's kill the discussion right here and now via a question I put ot my producer friends who work in studios, some form the big houses in Nashville. Yes, they keep terrabyte drives full of samples in the building, this is normal to pull for projects as needed. Ableton is disqualified from professional use by breaking the browser - real studios can't afford this time to scan a client or studio drive.
closed the user group on purpose.

androids
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:32 pm

Ableton Denver wrote: remove the drive, add a folder of samples to it outside of Ableton.

Reconnect drive, only 2 options are available:

1-The drive needs to be reindexed to reflect changes -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

or

2- not reindex and represents false data -- not acceptable / anti-pattern.

if you quit Live and launch it again after you have your drive reconnected, the indexer find the new folder, but the biggest is your sample collection the longest it takes to shows the changes.
Last edited by androids on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JeffreyCJohnson
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by JeffreyCJohnson » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:53 pm

snakedogman wrote:
JeffreyCJohnson wrote: Also, there's a typo in the Live 9 documentation:

> 5.1.2 User Folders
> . . .
> In order to work with your own folders in Live,
> you must first add them to the browser, either by
> dropping them directly into Live from the Explorer
> . . .
> After adding a user folder, Live will scan it,
> which “teaches” the browser about its contents
> . . .
> Note: adding a user folder does not actually move the folder to a new location

It doesn't move the files, it COPIES the files, and if you don't know that's happening you will loose valuable edits.

Following directions, I dropped the top-level directory of my largest user folder onto the browser from Explorer. The fact that it was my Live 8 library is irrelevant. :) Live 9 took two hours making a duplicate copy of all the files and folders... it took so long I expected stellar indexing results. (On the same drive it only takes Explorer 12 minutes to copy the same branch.) When Live was finished the user folder hierarchy was still mostly blank, and when the files did show up it was usually in very long lists; 1000's of files in one scroll box with *more* at the end.
I'm not sure what happened there but I've added a bunch of user folders to the places section in the browser and at no point did it move or copy anything. If I drop my "drums" sample folder of about 9 GB from explorer onto the browser it just appears as it should. Live "thinks" for about two seconds and then it's done.
Can you replicate the behaviour you describe?
Yes. Adding the folder to PLACES in the browser works as described, but dropping the folder onto the browser from Explorer copied the entire branch. Technically, the documentation is correct in that nothing "moved" on the disk; the branch was copied, and that was unexpected.

Now that I've had time to think about it, I would prefer having Live 9 perform a one-time one-way library+projects conversion to the new format, fully incorporated into the browser as if it had been built from scratch using Live 9 without the baggage of having a Live 8 library in PLACES. Is that possible?

beatz01
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by beatz01 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:56 pm

Glad you guys bring this and other flaws up because it means i surely will NOT buy L9 until all these design flaws are corrected.

donmich
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by donmich » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:26 pm

So does anyone know if ableton are responding to or addressing these issues in a serious way? Have they ever responded to negative feedback about the browser? I keep running into user reactions that range from being miffed to full on rage in a number of forums. I tried the beta but didnt have the time to participate in the beta forum. Surely these issues must have come up there...

Ableton Denver
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by Ableton Denver » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:30 pm

I am pretty active on these threads as my Live9 is down and I lost one hard drive already via the indexing. (have to recheck + scan drive in OSX w/warnings and intermittent success reaching files)

I have a few threads in here, tech support ticket, and I called as well. They are getting these reports and I have clearly outlined that they need to fix this asap.

We need to keep the head on Ableton as Ableton 8.5 (aka 9) is pretty busted, no-browsing large libraries, and I have legitimately lost a drive (as predicted).
closed the user group on purpose.

TYLRbass
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by TYLRbass » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:49 pm

I'm absolutely shocked that you cannot simply navigate your drives.. I'm having to use Finder for this, which is ridiculous when you think about it
Image

agent314
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by agent314 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:05 pm

These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell a lot of folks seem to want an audience for their ventings and meltdowns more than they want to get their problems actually fixed.

TYLRbass
Posts: 277
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by TYLRbass » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:28 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
donmich wrote:So does anyone know if ableton are responding to or addressing these issues in a serious way? Have they ever responded to negative feedback about the browser?
I can't comment on their feedback, but the best way to bring stuff to their attention is by contacting support IMO.

These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
I put in two support requests the other day, the first one (having to do with the browser) never got answered but the second one (dealing with downloading Live packs) was answered quickly..

You would think that they would go in order of received, but obviously they decided not to answer my browser e-mail or maybe want to stall on that until they can come up with some half-assed answer that deflects my attention from the real problem.

I can tell you one thing, they definitely were picking and choosing which threads to acknowledge in the beta phase, even though some posts had 30 or more +1's
Image

donmich
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by donmich » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:53 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
donmich wrote:So does anyone know if ableton are responding to or addressing these issues in a serious way? Have they ever responded to negative feedback about the browser?
I can't comment on their feedback, but the best way to bring stuff to their attention is by contacting support IMO.

These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
...coming from a guy that blogged about it and warned people about on on the propellerhead forum. :roll:

donmich
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:29 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by donmich » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:00 pm

agent314 wrote:
These forums do get read as far as I know, but support is usually the best way to go.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell a lot of folks seem to want an audience for their ventings and meltdowns more than they want to get their problems actually fixed.
Pointless speculation about peoples motives.
Trust me, (from experience on the manufacturer side), forum buzz puts more pressure and affects sales more than private support emails. Many people are following this. Some kind of acknowledgement and semi-transparency buys a lot of good will.

donmich
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:29 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by donmich » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:53 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
donmich wrote:...coming from a guy that blogged about it and warned people about on on the propellerhead forum. :roll:
Not sure which parts you're referring to here.

I have indeed blogged about support desks in general (link) but that was merely checking how fast and if support desks responded. Ableton's response time wasn't all that bad, but they did require someone with a registered address to contact them.

As me "warning" people in the Props forum... I don't recall that. I do recall commenting on someone's post who feels that Live 9 might be topping Reason, which is something I don't agree with.

I think Live 9 is a good product with some impressive features, but still feels unfinished.
Ok, wrong subject but I was talking about this... I found it because of your post on the PUF:

"Warning: Live 9 breaks ReWire!"

But whatever...

tintala
Posts: 467
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by tintala » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:44 am

androids wrote:Seems that I'm not the only guy with a *large* sample lib right ?

Using a faster computer this weekend, the scanning took me 14 hours to complete, only for my "sample" folder.
I also noticed that loading Live takes about 3 minutes (to load the 1.5 gigs of index file), then another 2 minutes when Live is open until I can use it, and around 2 minutes of disk activity when I quit (does it completely re-write the index file ??)

That's pretty unusable compared to Live 8.

No way I will switch to 9 until there is a "index on/off" somewhere in the prefs.
I want the old fashioned instant "explorer-like" browser.
I want a "Places (indexed)" and "Places (non-indexed)" groups in the browser.

I want Ableton to explain me what is the point to index millions of samples if the only benefit is a search function which returns 3000+ results when is enter "kick" ???

Even if my library is huge, if I want a special type of kick, I know where to look at, and I dont need Live to perform this task for me.

[Library size : 2.4 To, 2'267'497 Files, 113'978 Folders]


8O 8O 8O HELL NO! I have at least 3TB library and growing daily..

zeepster
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Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by zeepster » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:59 pm

I work as producer / sound engineer professionally too, have lot's of drives and folders with samples. I want the ability to EXCLUDE these locations / maps from being indexed. Just let me browse them as in 8.

I don't want a big index database building up somewhere on my C: drive.
Since the early days of DAW's indexing has always been off. I wish Live 9 would give the user an option to do that.

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