finally... BITWIG STUDIO! beta 'soon'...

[Tone Deft]

WOLF !

[H20nly]

the problem I see is that some of these guys are very poor writers.

The problem as I see it is that people are way too quick to conflate minor bugs or inconveniences in their workflow with a showstopping, application-crippling flaws in the fundamental design and basic functioning of the program, and you end up with a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation when it comes to people reporting legitimate flaws.

this.

we have a program that can do so many different things so many different ways but while jumping up and down about how debilitating it is that it still can't do something it has never been able to do in one specific scenario... yet there are multiple ways to achieve the task at hand... that's not nit-picking?

hypothetical... whatever... i'll be ID-centric too.

now, let me get back to that Bitwig demo... oh wait... there isn't one.

[H20nly]

Meanwhile, some users dismiss any issues raised as trivial nit-picking
As if to say "it doesn't affect me, so you guys are ID centric"

Some users dismiss any excitement about a product which contains features they are looking forward to. Some users dismiss other peoples concerns, problems, requirements, and excitement that these might be addressed.
Dismiss them all you like, but I can't help but laugh at these ID centric posts.

happy to contribute to your amusement!

[donmich]

"In a gold rush, sell shovels"

Are you talking about the updates to 9 in particular, or the Push functionality?

Also, very aptly put

I would say that for both products. When they considered what was important to include and what their prospective purchasers might value, it seems that things like " accessing and previewing partner content" is top of the list, while "managing existing/user content" wasn't actually on the list.


The new browser didn't prioritise user content, user organisation methods, user creative requirements and circumstances. Instead it prioritised partner content, partner organisation methods, partner requirements.
Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.

Of all of our various working methods, situations, musics, organisation methods. Whose does this conform to?
Or do we conform to it?

This is probably the most on-the-mark and eloquent critique of Live 9 I have seen. Its the kind of thing that many people might instinctively feel but cant quite articulate. It exposes possible philosophical flaws (whether they were conscious or not) that I would like to believe ableton wouldnt want to be labelled with - rather than just technical flaws and irritants.
I personally feel its an insight which is important for ableton to hear, and suggest posting it as an "open letter" on its own. Its too burried in this thread.

[Tone Deft]

This is probably the most on-the-mark and eloquent critique of Live 9 I have seen. Its the kind of thing that many people might instinctively feel but cant quite articulate. It exposes possible philosophical flaws (whether they were conscious or not) that I would like to believe ableton wouldnt want to be labelled with - rather than just technical flaws and irritants.
I personally feel its an insight which is important for ableton to hear, and suggest posting it as an "open letter" on its own. Its too burried in this thread.

repost it in the Feature Request forum.

[mholloway]

Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.
?

Not sure why people keep applauding this post of yours, when, factually speaking, it is completely inaccurate. "Other" folder? Arbitrary categories? The first doesn't exist, and the second is provably wrong.

User content is stored in "User Library" (quite a far cry from 'Other'...) which exists under "Places." Partner content, in case you haven't noticed, also exists under "Places." So the user content ('user library') and partner content ('packs') are nested into exactly the same location within the browser.

The "categories" section above both -- while very clunky for sure -- is designed as a tagging-based system that globally references -all- the content stored throughout the 'places,' be it from a partner or from a user. I don't think it works very well, but it certainly doesn't discriminate against the user the way you apparently think it does.

[Angstrom]

Notice how the author/creator is just a nested folder called"other" in their arbitrary categories , and know where you stand in their conception.
?

Not sure why people keep applauding this post of yours, when, factually speaking, it is completely inaccurate. "Other" folder? Arbitrary categories? The first doesn't exist, and the second is provably wrong.

User content is stored in "User Library" (quite a far cry from 'Other'...) which exists under "Places." Partner content, in case you haven't noticed, also exists under "Places." So the user content ('user library') and partner content ('packs') are nested into exactly the same location within the browser.

Explanation: Up until a very late Beta any user content saved in places appeared in an "Others" folder. That is - if you saved an Analog preset it appeared in Categories/Analog/Others, alongside any other uncategorised content from packs, or users. The folder Other is now gone it seems, user content is placed in the root of the category. This must have been a late change.

My point stands: that the initial conception to have an author folder grouped anonymously with tonality folders was borne out of very peculiar idea of "what users want from a dynamic browser"

You say the categories are "provably" not arbitrary?
Did you choose your own categories?
Can you add or delete categories?
Can you add a top-level categoric filter grouping of "My Live Presets"
Can you add a second Level filter/folder grouping of "My Live Presets"

the categories and sub-sections are not editable, they are chosen by Ableton.

The "categories" section above both -- while very clunky for sure -- is designed as a tagging-based system

Categories scans OS folders to use them in the categorisation scheme, but it's not a tagging system. A true taxonomic system would be flexible and non-exclusive, where tags for tonality would allow a sound to be both Bass and Brass (and Synth .. etc.), not to exclusively belong to just one tonality.

They created a DB driven browser to replace the limited hierarchy of the OS file-tree, but then imposed a hierarchic categorisation on it that we cannot change! I am specifically talking about Categories here. Why create this new dynamic and Database driven browser if the part that is most dynamic is the most fixed and inflexible?

Where is the advantage for the user of these pre-chosen 'dynamic' Categories section? That they are learnable ? What then of the case of "all alone pad" (the pad which exists in Ambient and evolving), how do we learn this system? How is it more powerful than a plain OS tree heirarchy?

... a tagging-based system that globally references -all- the content stored throughout the 'places,' be it from a partner or from a user. I don't think it works very well, but it certainly doesn't discriminate against the user the way you apparently think it does.

Well, I agree that since they have removed "/Others" in the release version it certainly means that user creations are now at least at the child level of each category rather than relegated to anonymity. However, my point was that different users prioritise different things in different circumstances - and that is each user's core browsing/searching requirement.

When they were specifying this dynamic database driven browser, Their starting point was to please a wide variety of user-types trying to filter a massive amount of disparate data in varied circumstances. To address this varied usage Ableton gave us this browser.

It sits on a big database and ought to allow us to add categories, groupings, taxonomic attributes, all quickly and to our requirements.It ought to allow us to order and present our content as we need it.

I am glad that many users like the browser, however - for me it has made me stick with Live 8. Please try to understand that the nature of presenting a FIXED browser means for some it will NOT work with them, but against them. This seems odd for a dynamic DB driven browser.

[re:dream]

Is there any actual news about Bitwig? Is a release expected any time soon?

[kitekrazy]

Is there any actual news about Bitwig? Is a release expected any time soon?

I've been on the beta list but nothing yet. Some Live users have crowned Bitwig "King of DAWs". It's like people who think caviar is great until they taste it.

[re:dream]

You've been on the beta list. Does that mean you're beta testing? Is there a beta out yet?

[CFM]

I've been on the beta list for 18 months, never got an invite Some out there say they have a beta copy, although I find it very strange there are no ' I've made it with Bitwig videos on web', only to pro Bitwig ones. You would think there would be something...music recreated with biitwig.. A whole track???

[eyeknow]

Is there any actual news about Bitwig? Is a release expected any time soon?

At namm they said "summer"

So, anytime now

[re:dream]

Nights are starting to get long over here, though...

[Sibanger]

It is interesting reading some of the earlier pages of this thread....

Now i'm curious as to just how long they'll tease us with the beta test.....

(*Cringes at thought of "Hey Bitwig will you release the Beta before 2015?" thread*)

I just think they are taking their time to get it right. It's easy to see the major competition making mistakes by releasing a product still in a beta phase.( I know some people will argue all software is at various stages of beta ) I thought the Live 8 experience & a 3 year wait would have insured a more mature live 9 release.

although these are still babysteps..
I think Ableton should step on it with the L9 thing...
preserving users should also become a serious priority..

let the competition begin...

I had my fingers crossed that this would happen, but L9 seems to be underwhelming, leaving the door wide open for Bitwig to impress. Abes has failed to look after current users. The New Library is optimized for their new hardware: Push & has created many issues for current users. The 'new' browser is fast becoming a thorn in the side with many not upgrading because of it.... Oh, and running 2 libraries ?? Hmmmm. Not ideal.

CAN'T WAIT for Ableton's answer cause you can bet that they will have a damn good one.

Push....

OK, some guys are going nuts for it, but the software development of live seems to have stalled a little. Live is all about sound packs & hardware these days & less about software/DAW development and innovation.
Abes have come to a fork in the road, and have made a decision which way to go. It will be interesting to see how many current users choose to take the same road.

Time will tell.

[onestep]

Very excited about Bitwig here. Can't wait to check out their "open controller scripting API" they teased with Maschine MKII: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUE8NosuCIU