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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
deva wrote:
1- There is no reason why I would want to open a plug-in window from hardware. If I am opening the window, it is to edit, which I would do on the screen in the first place.
It's very handy for those who want to quickly reference the plugin window without having to reach over to use the mouse. Live users have been requesting this feature for a long time.

deva wrote:
2- Sure Maschine can be a Live controller, but then it is not having all the functionality of the Maschine software. It is disingenuous to tout both without mentioning they cannot be had together.
It's actually disingenuous for you to falsely claim that:
deva wrote:
The advantage of Push is that it is not using a different software layer, but is directly controlling Live. At any moment I can switch to Live instead of being in the Maschine software.
when actually Maschine also directly controls Live without a "software layer". You can also switch back and forth between Live and Maschine at any moment.

deva wrote:
Since Maschine only has a 4x4 grid, Maschine by itself is inferior to Push with its 8x8 grid. With Push, without having to switch pages, you have 8 tracks with 8 clips per track, plus scene launch buttons. Maschine you have to do multiple page switching to do this.

This is a very real advantage of Push over Maschine. As is being a 64 note midi 'keyboard' with ribbon controller. So to match these capabilities in Push with Maschine I also have to purchase a launchpad, plus a 61 note keyboard controller as well as Maschine.
Like I said, 8x8 grid is not much of a selling point especially at Push's laughable price point if you already have Live controllers like Launchpad or iPad controller like TouchAble, Griid, LiveControl, Lemur Mu...etc. or other iOS controller apps that do isomorphic grid layouts with scales.

The bottomline is that Maschine as an integrated software/hardware combo has very real advantages over Live and Push when it comes to things like the ability to have a completely mouseless workflow, having total control of pretty much every feature of the software, plugin automapping, exclusive Komplete preset support, a hands-on sample chopping workflow such as being able to sample directly to a pad, duplicate those pads, slicing, waveform editing from the hardware...etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:05 pm
Posts: 360
yes, so you've said. At length. Anything new to add?


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:49 am
Posts: 1683
Location: NOW
lo.key wrote:
yes, so you've said. At length. Anything new to add?



smells like bias to me, you cannot make such bold statements without having hands on.

the push step sequencer is top notch and there's nothing like it currently on the market. blown away at how easy it is to just open live and start working.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
doc holiday wrote:
you cannot make such bold statements without having hands on.
All the facts I've shared here about Push come directly from what Ableton has shared here, who I'm sure have had plenty of hands-on with it more than anyone else.

doc holiday wrote:
the push step sequencer is top notch and there's nothing like it currently on the market.
Curious that it can't even step sequence regular MIDI tracks for being so top notch.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 440
What you will learn about humnumb is he truly has nothing to offer this forum aside from touting the greatness that is maschine. and he will defend it like its his first born. He's nothing more than a troll who should be getting kickbacks from NI.

Heads up douchebag...not everyone finds maschine useful or "intuitive".


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 1320
J0n35y wrote:
Neither is superior to the other and neither fits all cases. Depending on what software you have to date, how you use it, what your expectations are either Maschine will be the better bet or Push. It kind of reminds me of IGN's forum pages with people bickering about whether the PS3 is better than an XBox.

I think much of the confusion here seems to stem from the fact that there are two different things being discussed:

1. The way Maschine works as a software/hardware combo with total control over its own software (which has its own session view with scenes and clips, which always had realtime recording of clip modulation) from its dedicated hardware can be compared to how Live 9 will work with Push.

2. Maschine also works as a Live controller. Whether it's officially supported by Ableton or not, Maschine has always included a Live controller template from the very beginning. In fact, it was the first controller to have the Live clip launcher capability even before APC40 was released.

So, considering that Maschine is both a viable alternative to Live's session view and drum racks (and has the advantage of providing a mouseless workflow) and a Live controller at the same time, it makes sense that Maschine and Push are being compared, especially those looking for more of an all-in-one solution (even though nothing really is) or those looking for more of a hands-on workflow that doesn't involve using a mouse or staring at a computer screen.

For the features in Live that the Push does have control over, the Push is probably going to be the best tactile controller for that until the next Live controller inevitably drops, of course. The disappointments about Push seems to stem mainly from the fact that it's not an all-in-one controller with total control over every feature of Live, especially for those who'd rather not use a mouse or those who want to be able to sample and chop in Drum Racks from the hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1547
humnumb wrote:
when actually Maschine also directly controls Live without a "software layer". You can also switch back and forth between Live and Maschine at any moment.


A lot of the features you tout are in the Maschine software. When you are using Maschine just as a controller for Live, then you do not have those features...

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1547
humnumb wrote:
Like I said, 8x8 grid is not much of a selling point


It is 4 times the selling point of the puny little 4x4 grid in Maschine.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3491
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
I need more time. But, my early verdict is:

It's a toss up.

Push is really fun and more solid than any controller I've ever had. Sits very low profile. In a beautiful way.

But.

Each controller has strengths. I might go as far as to say that Maschine is slightly 'snappier'. And that one factor can contribute a lot to performance in live situations.

I need more time, and it Could be my computer but I doubt it.

They are both beautiful devices :P. I'm happy to own both haha


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:42 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 757
Location: South of London
yur2die4, damn so you have your shiny new Push already. I received a call from my store today telling me it's ready to be picked up but I'm 500 miles away visiting family in Scotland aargh! I only get to see them once a year now so this plastic controller can wait :)

If you don't mind; in what way is Maschine snappier? Are you talking about latency or something or is it workflow?


@humnumb. I really disagree and think that the 8x8 is a major selling point to Push.
1. In instrument mode you have more octaves to play over
2. In drum rack mode you have instant access to 16 drum pads + step sequencing + real-time looped bar selection/juggling
3. Session mode 8x8 grid of clip slot selections.


I don't think that can be so flippantly dismissed considering how boxed in you are on the 4x4 with Maschine or to compensate for it's lack of surface with rather unstable ipad apps. Touchable was so crashy as to be almost unusable on my ipad 3.

I personally dislike using the touch screen for this type of control and much prefer more tactile responsive pads and knobs. The same can be said for replacing the Push scales mode with an ipad app. You just won't get the same feedback from a flat glass screen as you would with lovely rubbery buttons :). I thought most people would get that.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:06 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3491
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
Well. To be honest, part of this 'snappiness' might just be my brain getting accustomed to things ;)

Browsing sounds in Maschine does seem slightly easier. But they are stuck inside Maschine, which works great IN Maschine, and they all load pretty smoothly.

Live's navigation could really use some sprucing up. I actually am more accustomed to loading defaults than presets, and this makes me keep wanting to load presets. I Know I can, and how To load defaults. I'm remembering that I need to update my defaults in Live 9.

I could really ramble a lot here quite honestly.

It is just the feel of little things. How the knobs work even. Automating quick fades isn't really going to happen. But that's what faders are for :P

I've also grown quite accustomed to 'keyboarding' via Maschine. But this is opening my options and I find keyboarding in Push to be fun, inspiring, engaging. I will probably still crave Maschine/Launchpad style melody playing also though (I'm nuts haha).

Most of all, I know everyone says it. And you will shit your pants when you unpack this thing. It is so beautiful and rugged. The ruggedness also applies to the buttons. I don't have a 100% opinion on the buttons and pads.
I'm pretty sure I am slowly falling in love with them (sorry, got distracted, the pads beckoned for me!)

And Push wins hands down for controlling parameters. Once you rack your stuff. The screen is quite vivid.

I must admit, I am comparing to a very early (has the F1 as F2 buttons) Maschine.

Ahhh!!! I love this thing though.

-end constant stream of rambling


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:26 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 757
Location: South of London
:lol: Brilliant post.
Keep it coming man, appreciate the good honest stream of consciousness babbling. One man's descent into madness

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:42 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
panten wrote:
rather unstable ipad apps.
Haven't experienced anything unstable on my end with iPad apps.

panten wrote:
I personally dislike using the touch screen for this type of control and much prefer more tactile responsive pads and knobs.
I prefer the iPad controller apps for launching session view clips where you can actually see the name of each clip you're triggering. And I still have Maschine for tactile responsive pads and knobs. :)


Last edited by humnumb on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:02 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 757
Location: South of London
humnumb wrote:
Haven't experienced anything unstable on my end with iPad apps.
lucky you.

humnumb wrote:
And I still have Maschine for tactile responsibe pads and knobs.
I was referring to the difference between a slippery touch screen and a hardware controller for the same purposes. The main problem I have with touch screens are that you must hover and tap as opposed to being able to rest your fingers on the button or knob before applying pressure or torque. Think of the difference between touch typing on a traditional keyboard and tap typing on an ipad screen keyboard. They're polar opposites in terms of feedback.

Push does a great job of consolidating this stuff and eliminates the need for a more untidy setup.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:10 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm
Posts: 636
yur2die4 wrote:
The screen is quite vivid.

I must admit, I am comparing to a very early (has the F1 as F2 buttons) Maschine.

I had one of those too. Wait til you check out the high contrast displays on Maschine MKII. It blows the original Maschine's displays out of the water. They've been inverted with light blue text on a darker blue background and aside from looking sleeker and crisper they have a much higher viewing angle and way better visibility in low-light conditions. The difference is night and day and so are the pads. So buttery smooth and way more sensitive (and you know how sensitive Maschine's pads are).


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