Why I will not make music with something like "push"

[erikomic]

Hi all,

It's been a while since when complaining about missing features (or gone or requested) I am told on this forum that ableton is trying to put their big thing a.k.a. "push" up front and that ableton is now oriented "push-ready" rather than user friendly.
I really hope not and that is the purpose of me posting this subject.

I understand their (ableton) wish to make a breaktrough into "hardware controller market" but I think it"s time to remind them and others that a lot of us really don't have the use for those things and are making music with other things than pressure of a finger on a matrix pad.

Yes I'm an old fart that still like to film with a camera, to phone with a phone, to record with a recorder, to plan with a planning...
But especially when it comes to music.
Not every user of live dream himself as a deejay -far from it- and I've been using live in a large span of uses from Theather Live audio to concerts...

I tend to think about live as a creative tool but also and mainly as a mean to "liberate myself" from a lot of tasks that would be almost impossible without it ... looping, shaping sounds, recording...whatever. I've been discovering cool features about this software almost everyday for those last years. But now I kind of also discover, slight changes or removed features... This is not what I had in mind...

I mean what other users do with live is none of my bizness but I've alawys oriented the act of buying equipement with specific needs. That is why I will not buy a push or maschine or apc-40...because I don't need it. But I need the software to work for me...

So don't forget that Live IS a great standalone software and don't bank all on a would-be hype controller.
I hope this make sense and please give feedback to the "feature wishlist forum" wich has plenty of excellent ideas to make this software best as ever.

Best regards. Eric.

[SuburbanThug]

[re:dream]

Hopefully Ableton's strategy is not to lock people into Push, but to provide hardware with integration features not available elsewhere in the market.

I have no intention of getting Push either (I feel no need for it) and *at the moment* don't see any convincing signs that Live is trying to , er, push me into using Push. The software works well without it.

If they were trying to lock people in that would be a silly strategy.

[madlab]

Won't use push neither for exactly the same reasons. But I can't help thinking that some directions in the software part, the browser is one of those, which are designed with the push in mind.

[filter_7]

I think you can't make experience of things by mind.

If you want the same path in life, you're right. But if you like to discover the new, when it's better, it worth the trip.

My experience with Push is amazing. I am a guitar player, so keyboards to me are a beast to defeat. With Push i am writing a LOT of music material instead of usual black and white keys.

[Hauke]

Exactly. Push is awesome!

[greaterthanzero]

I can understand a DJ not having a use for step sequencers, or for synths and samplers of any kind. You're just mixing tracks and applying effects; Push is overkill.

Your statement that "Not every user of live dream himself as a deejay" confuses me a bit, for that reason. What makes Push controversial is that, unlike previous controllers, it isn't for DJs. Push is designed for the other type of user, or for transitioning DJs up to that level.

Whatever. You're not interested in the virtual instruments? You don't need Push. Cool.

...but why bring the APC-40 into this?

I can understand a traditional musician not wanting to record and play audio clips. Session view is not for them, and the APC-40 might be a bit overkill, though they'll probably use every part of it but the matrix grid.

But... no, really, I can't understand that. If you're exclusively an Arrangement view user, you're using the wrong software. Check out Reaper; it will serve your needs better and it costs a lot less.

But if you are a Session view musician, you're concerned with recording and playing back clips, with setting levels, and with controlling the occasional device parameter. The APC-40 is not about "making music with the pressure of a finger on a matrix pad". It's a physical interface for the tasks you use Live for. Looping, shaping sounds, recording... whatever.

That's a good thing.

And it's a good thing for you specifically.

...because the mouse can only control one parameter at a time. And that's stupid.


(is it possible you meant to say "Novation Launchpad" instead of "APC-40"?)

[erikomic]

You're not interested in the virtual instruments?

I use virtual instruments but I don't see the link with push.

...but why bring the APC-40 into this?

because it is also one of the most used kind of "grid matrix" controller before the arrival of push..

I can understand a traditional musician not wanting to record and play audio clips.

I think you're hearing voices man. You're saying a lot of strange things.

If you're exclusively an Arrangement view user,

??
there you go again. ??

Anyway my post wasn't in the sense of putting "push users" down. I do hope lot of them have really fun with it.
I was just saying that I hope ableton keeps in the good direction and develop Live for all user rather than as a handy tool for some hardware of their own ...
But it seems some people don't want to hear that issue that has been brought in many threads about features missing or gone in live 9.

Mmm, maybe the title of the topic wasn't really well written...

[SuburbanThug]

It's not just the title that's not well written. It's your post. Your criticism is vague and you say that you "take picture with a camera," "phone with a phone," etc. but then you tell greaterthanzero he's hearing things when he assumes you are a traditional instrumentalist. So why again will you not use this instrument? Because some posts on this forum lead you to believe that Live is being tailored to it's use? Do you have a specific criticism about a particular feature that's been removed that was important to your workflow?

"Not every user of live dream himself as a deejay -far from it- and I've been using live in a large span of uses from Theather Live audio to concerts..."

This comment basically reveals that you know little to nothing of the product and are probably someone who just gets pissy whenever other people are excited for something that he can't share in the excitement of. Seriously. Get off your high horse. You might as well go join those acoustic guitar playing dicks who will never touch a synthesizer because, "that's not real music, dude."

[greaterthanzero]

Pretty much what SuburbanThug said.

I laid out a lot of "perhaps this is your reasoning. here is my response to that" scenarios, because you did not communicate your reasoning and we thus could not respond to it.

I was not in any way implying that all the if/then pairs pertained to you. My use of the word "if" always implies there's a contrary option.

(I'm not hearing voices. But more specifically, I'm not hearing your voice. The discussion will go better when this changes.)


But as you'd seem to prefer putting me on the defensive rather than get at the root of our misunderstanding, let's explain my response.

I acknowledged that Push is the wrong controller for a lot of people based on the ways that they use Live, but submit that the APC40 is a great controller for the people for whom Push is wrong.

That's my core point. I happen to think you're one of those people APC40 would be great for. But it doesn't matter.

Whatever. Let's get into this.

When you say "a lot of us really don't have the use for those things and are making music with other things than pressure of a finger on a matrix pad," what are "those things?"

As we're talking about Push, one would assume "those things" to be pressure sensitivity, the step sequencer, the color-based display of different scales on the grid, and the option to filter out notes that aren't in scale. Those are the features that set Push apart from previous generations of controllers, and they're primarily concerned with virtual instruments. When you say "I use virtual instruments but I don't see the link with push", this is probably the root of your disconnect.

If you weren't referring to those, "making music with other things than pressure of a finger on a matrix pad" was very strange wording. Because that's what Push offers, and it isn't what previous controllers which happened to include a matrix grid offered.

In other controllers, and very specifically in the APC40, those buttons weren't intended to be any kind of instrument. They're controls to arm clips for recording, and to trigger the playback of those clips. e.g. "a lot of tasks that would be almost impossible without it".

If those weren't the tasks you were referring to, what are?

"looping, shaping sounds, recording..." are all made easier with a controller that can map physical components to the on-screen controls. In the case of APC40, you generally don't have to create those mappings, because it was designed with physical components that automatically map to the on-screen controls that you're talking about.

They are both controllers. They both have a grid of buttons. They are not in the same category. The APC40 is not something like "push". The equipment serves different needs.


The generalizations you made hint at you not understanding what these are good for. ("Not every user of live dream himself as a deejay -far from it-"... so, these controllers are for deejays? I'm telling you, Push isn't. And the APC40 is really more general-purpose, until we start remapping the controls...) And that's fine; if your setup works, there's no reason to change it.

...but the reason you will not make music with something like "push" appears to be based on a misunderstanding of what those words mean.

Again, that's fine. No one's trying to change your mind. But as you've voiced this in a public forum, the weird prejudices need to be called out as such.

[artpunk]

Hey! I use cameras that take film, hell I even have my own darkroom in use. I play a 90 year-old upright piano and guitar (both rather poorly) and love analogue instruments and traditional techniques. Sometimes it's about appreciating the process. This appreciation can be applied to newer technologies and processes however.
So, I also love to embrace new technologies wherever they can facilitate the creative process.
This is the key for me - facilitating the creative process! All of these amazing things now available to us (if we can afford them/ have access to them) are simply tools to get what we have in our head parsed in some way into vibration of molecules in the air. All tools/instruments need to be learned and all have their unique characteristics which suit more specific purposes than others.
There it is. I think I understand your concerns re: Ableton making their software specifically tied to a piece of hardware, but honestly I think this concern is unfounded. There have been eight previous iterations of Live prior to the latest release and with or without the Push, it is an amazingly powerful, flexible and fun creative tool. I cannot see Ableton limiting/restricting its user base just to Push owners.
The Push itself is very useful for what it does & I would remind you that the boundaries of what it does and what it potentially can do are only just being explored. Third party scripts like PXT (currently in beta) are proving that very well, but even in it's default state, coupled with Live 9 it is only just being explored, because it is so new.
Sorry...
What exactly was your point again?

[lo.key]

;D

[SuburbanThug]

"Why I will not make music with something like "Push"' "Because I don't have one and don't know what it does and would rather bitch about stuff than work anymore."

[Silicium]

in my opinion, push is a toy. but i love it and i would buy it again!

in general i dont know if i would use it for live performance, its to heavy
and the rubber skin would get very ugly but anyway. if you dont want to go to your
studio or just chilling at your couch/bed. its awesome to produce music and
free your creativity instantly.

creativity is a very spontaneous thing, i would never be able to be creative
because i have to. and the most time i have ideas are when i'am at home alone
with a beer or under the shower.

i mean yeah, its not the best idea to use push under the shower but with push
you have a tool you can use to be creative in the right moments, and then finish it in the studio.

[infernal.machine]

I don't think the OP was about the whole electronic vs traditional instrument debate.

The essential point was that Live 9 was designed around Push. The browser was changed to be more accessible by Push, the new Session View automation is meant to be controlled by Push, all the promotion they did revolved around Push, etc etc.

And all the while they ignore the requests for dual monitor support, scroll wheel zoom, PDC compensation, snap to grid automation, subgroups, yadda yadda.

I'm sure Push is a great controller, but it shouldn't be Ableton's number 1 priority.