Why I will not make music with something like "push"

[Hauke]

Push is one way to control Live 9 and to create clips. The best way by the way. But you can do it with every other controller, or even with mouse and keyboard. The shortcuts, and the possibility to map keys of your computer keyboard also helps a lot.

But seriously, with Push it is another Level. You actually "play" Live (all it's instruments)

[login]

I don't think the OP was about the whole electronic vs traditional instrument debate.

The essential point was that Live 9 was designed around Push. The browser was changed to be more accessible by Push, the new Session View automation is meant to be controlled by Push, all the promotion they did revolved around Push, etc etc.

And all the while they ignore the requests for dual monitor support, scroll wheel zoom, PDC compensation, snap to grid automation, subgroups, yadda yadda.

I'm sure Push is a great controller, but it shouldn't be Ableton's number 1 priority.

No, his post doesn't state anything like that. If that was his intention then he must consider revising his writing.

[greaterthanzero]

The essential point was that Live 9 was designed around Push.

That's debatable. I'd say Live 9 and Push were designed around each other, but that Push is merely the first in a class of such controllers. (Give Akai 6 months of exclusivity, then see what Novation announces.) A lot of the focus in Live 9 was towards opening things up more to hardware. But I think time will show that it wasn't specifically about this device.

The original post did stipulate that they're not interested in any of those controllers, and I respect that. It was their lumping the previous generation in with those which I disagree with.

The browser was changed to be more accessible by Push

The browser had problems and needed rethinking.

In some ways, it's better. In many, it's worse. Further refinement still needed.

the new Session View automation is meant to be controlled by Push

I'm probably misreading that -- wasn't recording automation clips from MIDI one of the most requested and sorely missing features of Live 7 and 8?

all the promotion they did revolved around Push, etc etc.

Not all. But there's only so many ways you can call out the Glue Compressor or Pitch-to-MIDI. You can't blame them for using something obvious and visual in a demo.

And all the while they ignore the requests for dual monitor support, scroll wheel zoom, PDC compensation, snap to grid automation, subgroups, yadda yadda.

I'm still not sold on the idea of dual monitor for Live. But I see your point. (heck, substitute "access to unfiltered MIDI data in max for live" and I'm right there with you)

I'm sure Push is a great controller, but it shouldn't be Ableton's number 1 priority.

It won't be in the long term. But it was an integral part of this launch, and it's not going smoothly (with shipping delays and LED inconsistencies in the production units that weren't present in any of their demos). I think making sure the next batch doesn't embarrass them further has to be their immediate priority, followed by damage control so they don't alienate the early adopters.

We're probably a few months out from them being able to let Push stand.

[Hauke]

We have some very uninformed trolls in this thread I think.

[artpunk]

^ re: GTZ's points +1!

We have some very uninformed trolls in this thread I think.

This thread is really quite troll free compared to many others I've seen here!
I think most people who have replied are trying to address the vaguely communicated points the OP was making...

[lo.key]

the idea that live is somehow being limited because of the push integration is pretty absurd. Leaving aside the browser until they get it right, all of the changes to live have focused around making it easier to record and tweak recordings on the fly. And all of these improvements are as accessible to other hardware, with some time spent mapping your controller. session automation is a huge difference. And it has nothing to do with push.

edit: but i'll meet you halfway > you know what bugs me, is that the 'fixed length' loop recording mode available with the push, is a part of the python script, and not the actual live environment. That burns.

[skatr2]

to be honest I think live 9 was designed overall to be more friendly with controllers I'm general. not JUST around push. now other companies have a framework and file structure to design integrated python scripts around. not JUST something that feels slapped together. I like my push... and the focus makes me excited about the ante being upped.

[Sional]

I can fully understand that some people are really excited about Push and may find it a godsend to their workflow and music production/playing. Equally I can understand that some people will have no interest in Push as they consider it will not enhance their workflow. These people are less likely to be so enthralled by the differences between Live 8 and 9, whereas if you want Push then Live 9 is an essential requirement.
For me Push is not overly exciting, mainly because I never need to make "adjustments" in 8 consecutive tracks and 8 consecutive scenes. I tend to jump all over the place (e,g. track 2 volume, track 9 pan, track 18 send b, scene 14 clip mute and, in between, drag samples from browser, open VST instrument, adjust instrument parameters all the while keeping one hand on my keyboard to play notes etc). A while back I bought an APC 20 and found I never used it. Like it or not, for my workflow nothing beats a mouse.
Having said all that, I do own a Maschine Mikro and intend to replace it with a full size Maschine and I am still waiting for my Push to be delivered. Ah the holy grail of midi controllers!

[panten]

^^^
hilarious! On the one hand you say you'll never use the Push for your particular workflow then on the other you say you're upgrading your Machine Mikro AND getting a Push.
Do you like collecting dust traps?

[lo.key]

fools and their monies, eh? ;D

[glitchrock-buddha]

Don't mean offense, but the original post makes very little sense to me. I don't understand the point. I would be like saying "why I don't need a midi keyboard controller...". Well ok then.

Push has three main purposes:
1)Drum Kit controller and sequencer
2)Melodic instrument controller
3)Session view controller for clips and mixer/device control

So I don't understand the dj reference. Most of it is focused on playing and recording music. Or tweaking the sounds of those instruments. Some of it is about triggering loops that were recorded. Push doesn't somehow force you to change how you make music, it just puts a bunch of the software features onto a hradware surface.

So of course you don't need Push. Just like you don't need an M-Audio Axiom or a Novation SL. But it's a lot of fun.

P.S. The browser functionality with Push sticks, I pretend it's not there since it's such a pain to find my own presets.

[Sional]

^^^
hilarious! On the one hand you say you'll never use the Push for your particular workflow then on the other you say you're upgrading your Machine Mikro AND getting a Push.
Do you like collecting dust traps?

fools and their monies, eh? ;D

Maschine is a totally different tool compared to Push and, as I already own the Mikro, I know that I do use it in my music production and I know that I will likely get more use from the full size Maschine. I won't know for definite that I will not have a use for Push until I have tried it, although I consider it unlikely. My son urged me to order it as he will buy it of me if I don't want to keep it, plus it gave me the best upgrade price for Live 9 Suite.
I am quite frugal about what I spend on musical equipment, I do a lot of research and generally buy second hand of ebay. If I subsequently find that an item does not meet my requirements I will resell it on ebay with a cost of ownership normally no more than the ebay/Paypal fees. I find it strange that you two guys who know nothing about me or my circumstances decided to criticise and ridicule my post. Oh well whatever floats your boat, for me it's making music.

[agent314]

I find it strange that you two guys who know nothing about me or my circumstances decided to criticise and ridicule my post. Oh well whatever floats your boat, for me it's making music.

lol owned. Some people find it easier shit on what they assume others' choices to be, than to say nothing at all

I can totally appreciate where you're coming from re: Push not fitting your needs, but I definitely recommend going into it with an open mind

I played with Push for about 5 minutes at a demo a week before it came out, and I was actually kind of regretting my preorder, simply because it felt like such a clunky and unintuitive workflow at first, and I couldn't get my brain around the schema they were trying to use with the workflow

Once I understood what they were saying though, it's like the veil was lifted and I completely fell in love with Push and its attendant workflow.
As I've been using it more and the honeymoon phase has ended, I'm finding more limitations and situations that require workarounds as well as more places where the Push+Live seams don't feel as tight as they should,
but overall I am still extremely happy with it and have been using it alongside my APC40 with much delight.

[lo.key]

I find it strange that you two guys who know nothing about me or my circumstances decided to criticise and ridicule my post.

you might review what you posted initially, and ask yourself what kind of communication you were inviting with it. It's not so strange.

[Sional]

My initial comment was to remind people of limitations of midi controllers designed for Live and the areas where the humble mouse still reigned supreme, while accepting the fact that many people (including myself) would prefer to incorporate these controllers in their workflow instead of the mouse. At the same time I wanted to sympathize with the originator of this thread because I believe that enthusiasm for Push has overshadowed shortcomings in the Live 9 update and it does seem that certain functions have been lost to accommodate Push. Please remember that we have had to pay for the 8 to 9 upgrade and Push does not add any functionality to Live 9 it merely allows (arguably) easier access to some of the functions. You can step sequence in Live 9 without having Push. I know this because I have been doing it for the past couple of hours and I am still awaiting delivery of Push!