Live 5 .mp3 support and "decoding cache"

Post by **Alex** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:50 pm

Hi Livewire,

its just that i use other mp3 DJ programs and it seems they dont have a problem playing mp3s directly and instantly.

I would guess that most of these programs can not play many files at the same time. Decoding 2, 3 or maybe 4 MP3 files in real-time would not be a problem for the most computers, but when you want to play 20 or more at the same time it would need a lot of CPU power.

regards,
Alex.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:52 pm

Livewire wrote:does it really take so much cpu to decode mp3s in real-time? arent the LAME mp3 encoder, and most commercial encoders, capable of faster than real-time encoding/decoding?

dont stress out about this ableton, its just that i use other mp3 DJ programs and it seems they dont have a problem playing mp3s directly and instantly.

no, they don't have these problems... because that's really all you can do with them. If they had designed live5 to be a 2-track mp3-player, I'm sure a lot of people would be very angry right now

By using the current procedure, I can load up 40 mp3s and play them all at the same time, adding effects, and playing synths over the top - try doing that in traktor, hehe.
Horses for courses, it would seem, no?

drush · Post by **drush** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:14 pm

so when it's all said & done, if you have the HD space you're still better off keeping tracks in .wav format. or does Live still create a cache regardless of original format when it Auto-Warps? if that were true keeping .wavs on hand would greatly increase total storage needs.

does the cache get created either way?

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:22 pm

I think the Decoder Cache is fine. It takes about 5 seconds to decode a 10 minute mp3 at high VBR. And I can play the clip as soon as the part I want to play is decoded, so really it takes about 1 second or less before its actually ready. I find this to actually be faster than Traktor, which in my experience does not always provide instantaneous playback, and the time-stretching blows.
Also, the warp settings are saved, and thats the part that actually takes some time. Add in all the other countless advantages to using Live, plus the incredibly good (imo) Complex-mode time-stretching, and...well, its pretty obvious I think.
The Decoder Cache thing is something that would seem problematic, until you actually get in there and see how it works in practical reality.

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:44 pm

drush wrote:so when it's all said & done, if you have the HD space you're still better off keeping tracks in .wav format. or does Live still create a cache regardless of original format when it Auto-Warps? if that were true keeping .wavs on hand would greatly increase total storage needs.

does the cache get created either way?

why keep .wav or .aiff files when you can store everything as FLAC? Then you get no loss in audio quality and the cache is only used during performance on the files you actually use?

I think FLAC is the best solution, personally.

rob.

proggybreaks · Post by **proggybreaks** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:49 pm

The Decoder Cache thing is something that would seem problematic, until you actually get in there and see how it works in practical reality.

Well, its still extremely problematic for people like me, whose laptop has a mere 12 gig hard drive, and was looking forward to .mp3 support so that I could actually fit plenty of playable tunes on there. Guess I just need to stop living in the past though *sigh

DJALEX · Post by **DJALEX** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:57 am

I dont know why i hate Live 5 now!!

im not shur if is becouse, before the release (L5) i convert all my 300 GB of Wav samplers, loops and songs to MP3.....and now Live 5 convert again all my f____n work to wav!!!

Sorry for my english.

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:04 am

it only does it termporarily while you use it (per your cache settings). You still gain all the space savings and retain the same audio quality you downgraded to when converting to MP3.

This is a non-issue, IMO.

rob.

bensuthers · Post by **bensuthers** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:47 am

hard drive space is cheaper than processing.

THEREFORE

you should have your 20GB of MP3's as AIF or WAV on a 200GB drive.

rather than go through the processing bullshit. REGARDLESS of the speed of decoding and warping.

I thought this would be obvious!!

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:51 am

now that's a good idea!

Livewire · Post by **Livewire** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:25 am

HD space isnt whats bothering me. if creating decoding cache will save me CPU, then so be it.

its just that i'm not able to to play an mp3 song instantly when i drop it into the session view (for the first time), unlike wavs where you can play the song while the waveform is being generated.

is it possible to start playing a wav file before its finished being completely written to the HD? cant hardisk streaming do this?

Hedroom · Post by **Hedroom** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:36 am

robtronik wrote:Interesting problem... hope it isn't systemic to the program and is an isolated thing.

rob.

Hi,

Got a reply from Ableton's Alex on an equivalent thread in the "bugs and tips" section. Apparently if I install Quicktime Ableton will use this to decode the mp3s by default and this problem will go away.

Hope so

rikhyray · Post by **rikhyray** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:39 am

Just tried it today. Many tunes sounds like shit, some are OK. I think it can be used only as preview. I f you want to use for real, have to convert permanently.
Otherwise I am amazed, autowarp is rather accurate.

zekrab · Post by **zekrab** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:42 am

="SplashmasGot a reply from Ableton's Alex on an equivalent thread in the "bugs and tips" section. Apparently if I install Quicktime Ableton will use this to decode the mp3s by default and this problem will go away.

Hope so

It's true! I've tested... especially if you want to decode VBR mp3s. Got no problem since then.

serotoninsteve · Post by **serotoninsteve** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:43 am

Yes, you can immediately start plaing back while the wav is written in the background, but not the first time you import your mp3, then it´s not playable until it has been fully analyzed.

The biggest problem for me is that all my mp3 are on my external Hd, when I prepare a set at home all the stuff is decoded one by one while setting up a running track, no problem so far.

All the decoded wav´s are already in the cache, now I save as self contained, Live copys all the mp3´s in the songs related folder on my internal Hd and directly restarts to decode all the tracks another time into the cache, but all the tracks are already in the cache, Live just renames them with "name-1.wav".

The first time I didn´t notice it, I closed Live, went on stage and started playing.
Live continued to decode the whole 40 mp3 tracks in the background, while playing back 2 or 3 clips togheter, and immagine that that on a slow 4200rpm Hd.
Dropouts, hanging GUI every few seconds for about 2 hours of gigging.

I´m thinking of buying a second 7200 Hd for internal storage for now, but I think this behaviour has to be improved as fast as possible.

Greetings