Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

[Bean Machine]

But it is a threat, which you also included.

Carrying a concealed weapon is not a threat of force, moron. Heck, brandishing non-concealed weapon isn't either, unless you're actively pointing it at people and/or verbally threatening them with it. Try again.

Memory is hard.

Solid-state all the way, baby!

[SuburbanThug]

::FACEPALM::

Bean Machine is arguing from a predominantly libertarian capitalist viewpoint. Libertarian capitalists are by and large against initiation of force. This is explained by the non-aggression principle employed, by and large, by libertarian capitalists. When Bean Machine asserts this question it is "loaded" because he wishes everyone to believe that it is already well accepted in this discussion that initiation of force by a state is immoral.

Bean Machine asserts that this discussion cannot go on unless this question is answered and implies that it's answer also implies that Funken is a tyrant. This is a fallacious argument that he hopes will make all of his assertions appear correct.

Really? If it's a fallacious argument, why does FunkySpunk do everything he can to avoid answering the question? Could it be because he knows his position (that he, like you, favours the initiation of force under certain circumstances) is blatantly immoral and that to answer my question directly would reveal this fact? Could it be that Funken is nothing more than an intellectually dishonest little coward?

Given his stubborn insistance on ducking this question along with the one about the 25 planks of the Nazi party, I have little choice but to go with 'yes', at this point. Sorry scuzz, but them's the breaks.

Another logic fail for Bean Machine. Funken shouldn't have to answer a loaded question. It would be a disservice to the conversation and his argument.

Immoral failure to initiate force: Your mother is being raped before you. You are in perfect health yet do nothing to stop it.
See Initiation of Force: "Moral opposition to initiation of force is complementary with the non-aggression principle which supports force only in self-defense."
Measurements of the acceptable amount of force and at which point it becomes immoral are of course subject to societal mores and accepted legislation.

It is well accepted, historically, that the 25 planks have little to do with the actual operations and ideology of the Nazi party. In "Mein Kampf" Hitler even calls it the "so-called program of the movement" in one of it's only mentions in the book. We call Hitler a dictator precisely because he did not govern according to a platform that could be answered for or he could be held accountable to. He ruled by his own whims and by what got him from point A to point B.

Socialism does not come about by initiation of force. It is a response to tyranny which is an initiation of force. If there wasn't a tyranny to fight against there would be no need for socialism.

[myrnova]

It's certainly not Fascist. Aren't you aware the Mussolini allowed Jews into the positions of government under his watch? Not to mention that Fascist Italy was a safe haven for many of Europe's Jews until the Nazis forced them to hand them over?

Could you just stop talking crap, please?

[Jack McOck]

It's certainly not Fascist. Aren't you aware the Mussolini allowed Jews into the positions of government under his watch? Not to mention that Fascist Italy was a safe haven for many of Europe's Jews until the Nazis forced them to hand them over?

Could you just stop talking crap, please?

This comment surprised me too. So I looked it up:

Though Italian Fascism varied its official positions on race from the 1920s to 1934, ideologically Italian fascism did not originally discriminate against the Italian Jewish community: Mussolini recognised that a small contingent had lived there "since the days of the Kings of Rome" and should "remain undisturbed". There were even some Jews in the National Fascist Party, such as Ettore Ovazza who in 1935 founded the Jewish Fascist paper La Nostra Bandiera ("Our Flag"). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini)

Not only do you know squat about Switzerland, it looks like you don't know much about your own Italian history either. Feel free to respond to this with a picture.

[SuburbanThug]

"until the Nazis forced them to hand them over."

[Jack McOck]

"until the Nazis forced them to hand them over."

I do believe you've managed to completely miss the point. Again.

[SuburbanThug]

The statement is incorrect. That's the point. The one you are dodging. Kind of like my assertion that the question you and others demand Funken answer is loaded. You insist on using flawed logic and fallacious arguments to support yourselves in this discussion. I can only conclude that you don't really care to prove your points as long you get to smear people you don't like/agree with.

[Jack McOck]

Funken: "Anti-semitism is fascist".

Bean-Machine: "Not so".

Myrnova: "Brain-fart".

Jack McOck: "Proof Fascism is not anti-Semitic".

Subby: "OT crap".

Jack McOck: "Calling out OT Crap".

Subby: "Brain-fart".


God I love the Internet.

[SuburbanThug]

Jack: False premise.
Funken: Rebuttal.
Emissary: Fallacious argument in support of false premise, loaded question, Ad Hominem attacks.
Funken: Rebuttal.
Jack: Ad Hominem attacks.
Funken: Rebuttal.
Me: The voice of reason.
Bean Machine: Ad Hominem attacks, loaded question.
Jack: Card stacking, bandwagon reasoning, begging the question, playing with his balls like an infant.
Funken: Rebuttal, rebuttal, being far too kind, frustration at answering seriously to sometimes intentionally fallacious argument after argument.
Me: Reasonable analysis.
Jack: Ad hominem attacks.

[Jack McOck]

So you're saying that the Fascists were anti-Semitic?

[myrnova]

It's certainly not Fascist. Aren't you aware the Mussolini allowed Jews into the positions of government under his watch? Not to mention that Fascist Italy was a safe haven for many of Europe's Jews until the Nazis forced them to hand them over?

Could you just stop talking crap, please?

This comment surprised me too. So I looked it up:

Though Italian Fascism varied its official positions on race from the 1920s to 1934, ideologically Italian fascism did not originally discriminate against the Italian Jewish community: Mussolini recognised that a small contingent had lived there "since the days of the Kings of Rome" and should "remain undisturbed". There were even some Jews in the National Fascist Party, such as Ettore Ovazza who in 1935 founded the Jewish Fascist paper La Nostra Bandiera ("Our Flag"). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini)

Not only do you know squat about Switzerland, it looks like you don't know much about your own Italian history either. Feel free to respond to this with a picture.

Everyone knows that in ITALY, but this means NOTHING and justifies NOTHING. Mussolini was supported by the italian great bourgeoise, rich "jew" bourgeoise, too. Guess: Adolf Hitler had old jew relatives, too. Should it prove something? So, please, stop talking crap, or come here in Italy and take a visit to some of our lagers (Fossoli, Risiera di San Sabbia, Forlì, Vo Vecchio etc.). Once done, stop talking crap once again, please

[Jack McOck]

So which part of Beanie's comment was crap?

[myrnova]

So which part of Beanie's comment was crap?

If pics are not enough, i can always translate this shit to you. It was thanks to Fascism and Mussolini that Hitler had the "inspiration" to start his nazi policy, alas.

[SuburbanThug]

Well, that takes care of Hitler. Onto Obama. LOOOOOOOOOOL

[Machinesworking]

So which part of Beanie's comment was crap?

Where do you start? First off fascism is a far right, conservative, nationalist ideology. That cannot be argued, only someone missing huge amounts of history would think otherwise. Secondly, antisemitism was a right wing, conservative, nationalist ideology, decidedly anti-internationalist which is a far left ideology.
So it's not surprising that someone would mix up antisemitism as being decidedly fascist, considering it's source is the same.

Mostly, the far right has denied and obfuscated the role conservative, right wing, and nationalist thinking, (all of which it is entirely in line with), was responsible for fascism world wide. All the while to this day backing dictators at the drop of a hat who sell the west commodities at reduced prices.

Mostly this thread is troll bait Jack, and watching people argue with what's probably your mult is odd.