Just saw Robert Henke performance/lecture

[artpunk]

This reminds me of a discussion that we used to have on a trance music forum here in South Africa. (Bomelakiesie. Don't ask.)

It was about when (and whether) a performance by a DJ / music producer could be called a 'live set'.

Some felt that if you play your own music and play the lead lines etc etc etc it is live
Some felt that it ain't live unless you are up there tootling your acoustic krummhorn in real time, spittle raining on the audience

The debate went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

And on.

No one gave an inch. No-one conceded a point. No-one could leave it alone either. It just went on and on and on and on. For pages. On and on. For quite a few years.

Two pages. Early days. Go for it, guys.

Which is kind of why I wrote this:

OK then - what is the difference between craft and art? This could lead to one of those never ending discussions on the nature of art and what it is, but I'll stop you & everyone else who thinks they know right there.
Art is whatever someone proclaiming what they have created is art. The work of a craftsman is art. Art can be in the way a diver dives into the water, the way a Kabuki actor holds their arm 'just so', it can be a blob of paint on an otherwise empty canvas, in can be one note sustained for a period of time... It can be anything. What anyone else thinks of it is their business, or problem if they choose to object to it. It's all subjective.
Do you really want to proclaim you truly know what ART is? Because I don't!
Consider this:

“The most important thing in art is The Frame. For painting: literally; for other arts: figuratively-- because, without this humble appliance, you can't know where The Art stops and The Real World begins. You have to put a 'box' around it because otherwise, what is that shit on the wall?”

[SuburbanThug]

BUMP

Barely 3 pages? C'mon, this guy is the reason you're posting on this forum. Compliments? Criticism? Discussion? Trolling...? C'mon.

[artpunk]

BUMP

Barely 3 pages? C'mon, this guy is the reason you're posting on this forum. Compliments? Criticism? Discussion? Trolling...? C'mon.

I am extremely grateful people like Robert are living in my world. my tools and choices for creativity would be diminished if he wasn't, also I love what he is doing AV wise in those links, he is creating ART.

[re:dream]

But you, Artpunk? What about you? How do we know you're not just a CRAFTpunk?

[artpunk]

But you, Artpunk? What about you? How do we know you're not just a CRAFTpunk?

I am a riddle wrapped in an enigma
(or possibly an idiot wrapped in a moron as one of my friends suggested once)

[synnack]

Because there is nothing wrong with being a craftsman. No need to be self-conscious about it. No need to "elevate" it to being called art.

OK then - what is the difference between craft and art? This could lead to one of those never ending discussions on the nature of art and what it is, but I'll stop you & everyone else who thinks they know right there.
Art is whatever someone proclaiming what they have created is art. The work of a craftsman is art.

craft is how you do something. art is the result of doing it.
"your craft" is that thing you do. "your art" is the result of doing your craft.

Art is a context. Anything you put in the context of aesthetics becomes art. A cow in a field is a cow, a cow on a stage with a mic and PA is a musician.

Extra credit:
Art can have little to no craft as with conceptual art where it's not about what it is, but the decision to put it in an art context. Such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)

I wish more "producers" would put their work in the context called art. Would make for a much richer experiences making, listening to, and discussing music beyond "wobble" and "bass drop".

Viva SuperHenke

[artpunk]

Art is whatever someone proclaiming what they have created is art. The work of a craftsman is art.

craft is how you do something. art is the result of doing it.
"your craft" is that thing you do. "your art" is the result of doing your craft.

I think we just said the same thing, but slightly differently!?

(edit: I realise in your second sentence you were probably answering this bit here: OK then - what is the difference between craft and art? - and yes I agree!)
Also, in relation to and referring to your link - I did mention Duchamp in the first page of this discussion "Almost 100 years ago Duchamp showed that anything can be art"

and yes,
Viva SuperHenke indeed!!

[stringtapper]

what a useless conversation..

the artist is usually a very skilled craftsman + visionary...

I know very few guitarists who make their own guitars, painters that make their own brushes, or electronic musicians who program their own DAWs.

This sounds like you don't consider things like composition and the study of an instrument to be crafts. That only building tools are part of the craft? I'm not sure that is what you mean but that's just what it sounds like in this particular response. These two things in particular (composition and performance) are the bread and butter crafts of music, the traditional images of music as a craft if you will.

Of course there are plenty of musicians also "crafting" in the kind of context you mention above, it's just that most of them are in the avant garde or electroacoustic music scene so if you don't live in the conservatory/academy like some of us then you're probably not exposed to this. I'm talking about people who essentially create their own software tools using things like Max or Csound. It's quite common for electroacoustic composers to create an environment specific to each piece they write. In that case they have figuratively created their own paintbrush.

So the point is that the type of "roll your own" craft is definitely happening, but I think it's also important consider that even fundamental, traditional musical study and practice are just as much a type of craft

[SuburbanThug]

Ha! I didn't mean to draw us back into this conversation when I bumped the thread but I'll bite. I suppose I actually do agree with stringtapper that music is often a craft. I guess this is why in the past I have labeled some music "art music" although I guess a better term would be conceptual music. There is definitely a point at which the lines blur but I believe for the most part craft involves building something with utilitarian use that requires the product to have some kind of functionality. I realize this is not a strict definition and that even if it were that music could somehow still fit that definition. To me, art often does not require a skill in order to perform it. It often does but is not restricted in this way as a lot of performance art and other forms are mostly conceptual in nature. I mean skill in the traditional sense. Like a trade. It's not that there isn't creativity or "art" in the building of a DAW. It's that it's purpose is not to be pondered but rather used to create. Create art. Or as a tool for crafting. I agree that there is plenty of craftsmanship going on in certain electronic music circles and that's why I made them an exception. I also consider New York style graffiti to be a craft and not an art so...

[stringtapper]

Wikipedia isn't my preferred reference but I like these quotes from the page on "Craft":

A craft is a pastime or a profession that requires some particular kind of skilled work…

In English, to describe something as a craft is to describe it as lying somewhere between an art (which relies on talent and technique) and a science (which relies on knowledge). In this sense, the English word craft is roughly equivalent to the ancient Greek term techne.

Maybe it's because I'm in an environment where I'm around pretty much nothing but practicing instrumentalists and composers all the time, but thinking of these professions as being crafts is sort of a given in my mind. The composer hones his craft (act of composition) in order to create art (a composition), and the performer hones her craft (instrumental skills) in order to realize art (performance of said composition).

[re:dream]

Well, that's precisely the distinction Henke wants to bridge. And, looking at his laser installation, he seems to be doing a good job.

[esp81]

Did he mention why they can't seem to fix automation timing on plugins after 10 years?

[SuburbanThug]

Because Ableton Live is a work of art, not a tool. There's supposed to be latency on plug-in automation.

[esp81]

Because Ableton Live is a work of art, not a tool. There's supposed to be latency on plug-in automation.

hah you're hilarious.

[JuanSOLO]

A guy I know tried out for Marylin Manson guitarist years ago.
He made it down to the last 2 people, and they flew him out to rehearse with the band at Trent Reznors, but no Marilyn.
So finally Marylin comes by to meet him, and asks "So what is art to you?"
He replied, "Fart without the F"
They sent him home.