Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
MoRbIdBoY
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:04 am

Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by MoRbIdBoY » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:37 am

So I've like been in IT some 30 years. I'm also a keen amateur musician and producer, mainly in advertising and commercials.

I've got some 5 hard drives, around 2TB of material, samples, samplers. Strangely large, you might think. But no it isn't. It isn't strange at all. Not even close to strange for a producer.

I've had a look around your forums. This has been brought up A LOT. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=190475&start=15. But strangely no one seems to care. THAT is strange. (He's actually right about "Everything", I use it. He's more intelligent than your programmers and designers and engineers, but you didn't listen to him, I assume he used to be a customer as well).

I added all 5 drives into the Ableton 9 browser. After 2 FULL days (I let it run for a laugh - honestly, the only satisfaction was proving myself right), it produced an 2.6 gb SQL database.

Sine then (and during that 2 day period) Ableton was unusable due to disk thrashing. Still is. Stupidly unusable. Takes 10 minutes to start up fully to a point where I can search. Then it takes another 10 minutes to return any results. Even when I'm not doing ANYTHING it's disk thrashing to see if anything has changed on my 5 hard drives, lol. And I do mean LOL. (BTW, You DO know samplers use direct from disk and they REALLY don't like disk thrashing, AT ALL).

So I don't understand. I KNOW you KNOW what DFD is. I KNOW you KNOW an SQL database running in a sequencer is an epically bad design decision. Abandoning users with Ableton 8 libraries? - again, complete lack of respect and understanding (Yes, I do know you can still use it... and if you don't know what I'm talking about you simply don't care enough for me to bother explaining).

So in summary. If I was born yesterday and hadn't been in IT so long, I'd still instinctively know NOT to purchase ANY sequencer that had ANY disk activity when I was simply sat in my chair looking at it after it had just loaded up with an empty project.

I will not be upgrading.

PS. If you GAVE me a free upgrade, I would refuse it. THAT bad.

eyeknow
Posts: 5822
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:16 am

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by eyeknow » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:22 am

Respect for the guy who joined in 2006 and has 5 posts (no really, an amazing feat)

But for the common slug like me, I don't really understand. I know you don't want to explain it, but many of us are kinda unhappy with how 9 is shaking out. Maybe you should?

Blendton
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:29 pm
Location: France

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by Blendton » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:22 am

Just read first lines... then stopped.

I won't lose more time reading people worrying about their absences and all their consequences.

If it was me, it could, WTF being here ???

So how can I help you by the way ? That's the bug induced by this kind of sterile even if really sad, shit, if I began to tell you my bad lucks lol :oops:

[EDIT] I forgot, you wrote a 3 character long "name", in your title, thanks I forgot to never give a shit to what has always been et is a way to dscharge yourself from your errors, no blaming, it's human.

No gods here please. Thanks
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
Ableton Live 9 Suite (64-bit) & Ableton Suite 8 + Max for Live (32-bit)
Toshiba Qosmio F750 + lenticular glasses-free 3D
i7 2670QM 2,20GHz - 2x4GB DDR3-1333 - 5400rpm HDD

anstahc
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:04 pm

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by anstahc » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:03 am

What drugs do I have to take to understand even one line of what Blendtron said?

Blendton
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:29 pm
Location: France

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by Blendton » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:09 am

anstahc wrote:What drugs do I have to take to understand even one line of what Blendtron said?
Ritalin LA 40mg four caps per day.
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
Ableton Live 9 Suite (64-bit) & Ableton Suite 8 + Max for Live (32-bit)
Toshiba Qosmio F750 + lenticular glasses-free 3D
i7 2670QM 2,20GHz - 2x4GB DDR3-1333 - 5400rpm HDD

Blendton
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:29 pm
Location: France

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by Blendton » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:15 am

Et parce que je suis malgré tout extrêmement bon tant en orthographe, qu'en grammaire, française, et même ancien champion de dictée, je te réponds en français.

Je parie que même google translate sera capable, si je dis vrai, de te faire une BONNE traduction. Non, je ne l'ai jamais utilisé et ne le ferai jamais.

J'ajoute qu'ici, ma façon de parler, je l'ai choisie. Vas te faire un briefing sur le forum de Steve Duda,

www.xferrecords.com/forum

Quiconque est inscrit et peut me lire sur ce forum comprendra que si j'écris de cette manière, c'est pour une bonne raison.

Bref.

Ce texte que tu n'as pas été en mesure de décrypter, il disait juste que "le monsieur il a fait une erreur et vient se plaindre, c'est nul"

WTF... :twisted:
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
Ableton Live 9 Suite (64-bit) & Ableton Suite 8 + Max for Live (32-bit)
Toshiba Qosmio F750 + lenticular glasses-free 3D
i7 2670QM 2,20GHz - 2x4GB DDR3-1333 - 5400rpm HDD

mdk
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Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:51 pm
Location: Skopje, Macedonia
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Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by mdk » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:30 am

The irony is that they fucked the library and browser for the sake of Push but :

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=192471
Pr0k Records - Bandcamp Facebook Twitter

panten
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Location: South of London

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by panten » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:34 am

Was it for the sake of Push, I was under the impression it was because of all the complaints about the previous browser being pants.. now there's the irony.

mdk
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Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by mdk » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:58 am

probably a bit of both. the old browser wasn't great but..well..what can you say..
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Angstrom
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Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by Angstrom » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:07 am

The old browser was like an old skateboard, not fancy and prone to creaking under the strain but it would get where it was going eventually, just don't expect any tricks.

The new browser is like a big bus with no windows, it's taking all the passengers on a mysterious route known only to the secretive driver. If the bus is going your way then you're in luck, no problems! But If it's not, you'll be sat mystified for hours until eventually you jump off ... further from your intended destination than you started. As you angrilly turn to ask the driver where the hell you are, he silently sneers and shakes his head, "loser" he mouths, and drives away. The driver thinks to himself "I know where I am going, these people are all idiots".


That's the new browser ladies and gentlemen

Image

dazzer
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:24 am

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by dazzer » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:24 pm

I remember during the beta people's impassioned writing against the browser and feeling kinda, yeah, old one was better.

A few months into using L9, I literally spend zero time thinking about the browser as I use it. I guess I'm lucky.

su
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:09 am

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by su » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:09 pm

The unending chugging that occurs with big libraries is inexcusable.

I'm one of those who likes the new browser better than the old. I personally find Drums and Sounds really useful and use those folders a lot. Instruments, Audio Effects and Plugins are pretty much like the old browser. I find navigating the User Library to be speedier than navigating folders 1, 2, and 3 from the old library. I could never get a consistent workflow going of 1 was my samples, 2 was projects, etc. I do wish the ability to use shortcuts was added back.

bosonHavoc
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Location: Austin, Texas
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Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by bosonHavoc » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:14 pm

dazzer wrote:I remember during the beta people's impassioned writing against the browser and feeling kinda, yeah, old one was better.

A few months into using L9, I literally spend zero time thinking about the browser as I use it. I guess I'm lucky.
true that, I was personally kind of freaking out a bit in the first week..
live 9 can turn your whole world upside down but after you step back the changes are awesome.
as with any version upgrade of any software at any time.. never expect to hit the ground running.

main thing with the new browser do not put the root level of your system drive in places.
granted I personally do not have 5 2TB drives that I need to access via live..
I can see how you could acquire that much data tracking
but 10 TB of samples is a bit excessive if that is the case.

**the following is if OP reconsiders live 9 or future users with a similar problem**

The new browser is pretty dang awesome when you get used to it.
I'd say take a good look at all that data and figure out what you need direct accesses to via the live browser.
Mothball the old stuff that you don't mess with anymore and keep places clean with just what you need.
if you need to get to the data not in places it is not that much more time to use finder/explorer
Keeping places simple will also help keep your mind clutter down when working on projects too.
Live 9 is awesome I even like the automation editing changes even though it totally messes with my muscle memory lol

I personal tons of data and old projects that I may never open again, I actually plan to upload allot of it to
online archive storage sooner or later (hopefully before the drive craps out lol)

Angstrom
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Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by Angstrom » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:36 pm

So. There we go folks. Theres Nothing wrong with the browser because this guy says so, it's the users using it wrong.
Forget your destination, trust the bus driver.

Do you need to see creation date and media type at the same time?
No you don't

Do you need to put your own creations at the top of the menu, perhaps in your own bespoke folders?
No you don't

Do you want to use your established folder structure, or naming methods as a way of accessing your content?
No you don't

Do you expect to create your own data "category" filters, sort or hide the factory ones,create your own taxonomic classifications, drag your clips into "clips", search by date, search by partial match, search Boolean, have an actual non-hierarchic interface to the data?

Apparently : No you don't.

whenever a user has an issue with the browser, they are told "no you don't", you are doing it wrong.
It is NOT an issue of learning to use the system, or of the user throwing away old projects and content and conforming to a new way of working, it is an issue of a sub- par system which does not perform half as well as the underlying database would allow it to.

At some point I will make a detailed explanation of why they should not have used fixed hierarchical (OS filetree emulations) taxonomies for "sounds", and should have understood that properties and attributes should not be set as mutually exclusive when categorising mixed media content for a diverse userbase. Especially as the rest of the db is set up as a metadata - matavalue key: value system. It's nonsensical.

Let's say you are a mechanical engineer, and somebody asks you to get in their "new" car, and you can see that it's a "cut and shut" . Two sub frames welded into one car. The driver says "hey forget what you know, just get in, it will be great. Abandon your objections and get into my great car, that giant weld is meant to be there".

No. It will not be great. No, I will not get in

UncleAge
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:50 pm

Re: Ableton Live 9 - Dear God... No.

Post by UncleAge » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:45 pm

MoRbIdBoY wrote:I KNOW you KNOW an SQL database running in a sequencer is an epically bad design decision.
If they do know, they don't care.

I was surprised a bit at the overall acceptance of the new browser/database by the majority of users. However, I won't cross Live off my list just yet. I may upgrade to 9 some day. It will just play a much different roll than it does now in my setup. I will continue with 8 and I accept that I am not the target audience for 9 because just like you I have a large library of sounds and there is no way I am dealing with the current browser.

But I would also say that it makes no sense to dwell on this perceived negative. Go make some music. They will not change this aspect of the program so you might as well get over it.

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