mastering, live's sample db meter

[djgrits7]

hi guys, so on my tracks that i've tried mastering with compressor, limiter, multi-dynamics, i still can't get myself to show these nice full waveforms in serato...

well today, i'm taking one of these old instrumentals, (produced by someone else) and took into ableton live, open up the clip in the sample view box, and turned the db meter up and wa la, had a great sounding track with no clipping...

so, i went and did the same with some of my other tracks that i had tried mastering with compressor, limiter, i.e.... still sounded better after raising the db meter...

so my question is, how do you get this accomplished sound at the start of exporting file with having all ur mastering plugins...
this sounds ridiculous, but could one argue just to export the file before it's mastered, once it's exported, bring it back to ableton and turn the db meter up and be good? what advantages are there to doing all this work of compressing mastering, limiting if my files still aren't serato ready, or play ready and i still have to take that track back in and turn up the db meter...


THANK YOU FOR HELPING OUT A NEWB... i'm trying to learn, not trying to cheat the system! thanks!

[cawetzel159]

When you are "limiting" your track, do you turn the gain knob up at all or are you just throwing a limiter on it doing nothing to it. The volume increase from limiting comes from turning up the gain knob, if you don't do that all you are doing is just compressing with no makeup gain (cutting the peaks basically).

[ttilberg]

so my question is, how do you get this accomplished sound at the start of exporting file with having all ur mastering plugins...
this sounds ridiculous, but could one argue just to export the file before it's mastered, once it's exported, bring it back to ableton and turn the db meter up and be good? what advantages are there to doing all this work of compressing mastering, limiting if my files still aren't serato ready, or play ready and i still have to take that track back in and turn up the db meter...

That's actually not that ridiculous, but not for the reason you think. It sounds like you are not doing something correct in terms of understanding how the loudness gaining part of this process works, as Cawetzel mentioned, it sounds like you aren't using your compressors correctly.

Regarding your comment about mastering on a separate file, this is actually common. This way you aren't tempted to mess with the song writing portion, forcing you to go back to the mixing portion, forcing you to go back to your mastering portion. You also have significantly more resources available to your CPU, being that you are no longer trying to process instruments, only 1 clip of audio (or multiple, if you are mastering an album, ep, etc)

Of course, you can always be as accurate (and difficult) as you wish. Some people think its cool to have every possible meter running at +5 and call it good. (please don't do that.)

[djgrits7]

When you are "limiting" your track, do you turn the gain knob up at all or are you just throwing a limiter on it doing nothing to it. The volume increase from limiting comes from turning up the gain knob, if you don't do that all you are doing is just compressing with no makeup gain (cutting the peaks basically).

no i turn up the limiter... thanks for the heads up tho..

[djgrits7]

so my question is, how do you get this accomplished sound at the start of exporting file with having all ur mastering plugins...
this sounds ridiculous, but could one argue just to export the file before it's mastered, once it's exported, bring it back to ableton and turn the db meter up and be good? what advantages are there to doing all this work of compressing mastering, limiting if my files still aren't serato ready, or play ready and i still have to take that track back in and turn up the db meter...

That's actually not that ridiculous, but not for the reason you think. It sounds like you are not doing something correct in terms of understanding how the loudness gaining part of this process works, as Cawetzel mentioned, it sounds like you aren't using your compressors correctly.

Regarding your comment about mastering on a separate file, this is actually common. This way you aren't tempted to mess with the song writing portion, forcing you to go back to the mixing portion, forcing you to go back to your mastering portion. You also have significantly more resources available to your CPU, being that you are no longer trying to process instruments, only 1 clip of audio (or multiple, if you are mastering an album, ep, etc)

Of course, you can always be as accurate (and difficult) as you wish. Some people think its cool to have every possible meter running at +5 and call it good. (please don't do that.)

i really appreciate your response thanks.... any tips on how to use compressor if i can ask?

[ttilberg]

I think it's a hard concept to be able to teach with words, it's far easier to grasp in practice. Without really seeing your project's situation, it's hard to say for certain what's going on.
The idea of bouncing your song, and then setting it up in a separate Live set will (almost) process it no differently than if you had your master channel set up running the same sets of effects from both sessions. Basically adding 100 devices in one set is the same as 50 devices in one set, and 50 more in a second set.

Generally speaking compression gives you your loudness by doing this:
It captures the loudest peaks of your audio, and turns them down, thus compressing the dynamic range (volume) of your audio. By doing this, you are now able to turn up the whole thing, and make it louder before the output gets to 0 db. This helps bring out a lot of frequencies and sounds that previously were very quiet. Any compressor that is designed for loudness maximizing (most of them? All of them? not sure) will have something called "Gain Makeup" or "Gain" which dictates how much the compressor turns up the final sound, after it's made the loudest parts more quiet.

Two suggestions for you:
1) Research in general how compression works, do some youtube vids etc. There are tons of them -- here is one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v-1Y8fa3aw

2) If you care to save your live set (collect and save, so samples go with, and freeze any VST instruments that aren't part of Live Suite) you can send us a link and folks here can help you more specifically.

Good luck dude!

[djgrits7]

I think it's a hard concept to be able to teach with words, it's far easier to grasp in practice. Without really seeing your project's situation, it's hard to say for certain what's going on.
The idea of bouncing your song, and then setting it up in a separate Live set will (almost) process it no differently than if you had your master channel set up running the same sets of effects from both sessions. Basically adding 100 devices in one set is the same as 50 devices in one set, and 50 more in a second set.

Generally speaking compression gives you your loudness by doing this:
It captures the loudest peaks of your audio, and turns them down, thus compressing the dynamic range (volume) of your audio. By doing this, you are now able to turn up the whole thing, and make it louder before the output gets to 0 db. This helps bring out a lot of frequencies and sounds that previously were very quiet. Any compressor that is designed for loudness maximizing (most of them? All of them? not sure) will have something called "Gain Makeup" or "Gain" which dictates how much the compressor turns up the final sound, after it's made the loudest parts more quiet.

Two suggestions for you:
1) Research in general how compression works, do some youtube vids etc. There are tons of them -- here is one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v-1Y8fa3aw

2) If you care to save your live set (collect and save, so samples go with, and freeze any VST instruments that aren't part of Live Suite) you can send us a link and folks here can help you more specifically.

Good luck dude!

wow dude, i'm so humbled by your help, thanks a bunch! i'll keep in touch!

[Sage]

If you're turning the tracks up above 0dB at any point in the signal chain, then you are clipping. You might be finding the distortion from this better sounding than a clean limiter set in the same way.

[Tone Deft]

If you're turning the tracks up above 0dB at any point in the signal chain, then you are clipping. You might be finding the distortion from this better sounding than a clean limiter set in the same way.

nope. tracks themselves have over 60dB of gain into the red.

[Sage]

If you're turning the tracks up above 0dB at any point in the signal chain, then you are clipping. You might be finding the distortion from this better sounding than a clean limiter set in the same way.

nope. tracks themselves have over 60dB of gain into the red.

This provides zero sonic benefit.

[Tone Deft]

If you're turning the tracks up above 0dB at any point in the signal chain, then you are clipping. You might be finding the distortion from this better sounding than a clean limiter set in the same way.

nope. tracks themselves have over 60dB of gain into the red.

This provides zero sonic benefit.

you don't understand gain staging but that's not the point, you're just arguing.

[Sage]

[This provides zero sonic benefit.

you don't understand gain staging but that's not the point, you're just arguing.

I'm hardly arguing.

Whilst individual tracks in Live can go beyond 0dB and not clip, the master channel will in fact clip past 0dB and quite audibly, if you cannot hear this distortion, then the issue is not my understanding of gain staging, but your hearing. The same problem with clipping above 0dB will happen with plugins and causing plugins to clip because of high input volumes is incorrect gain staging, so to claim I do not understand it is absolutely ridiculous.

So in a thread regarding digital mastering, which involves getting as close to 0dB on the master channel as possible; If someone is merely turning the gain up and causing the master to peak above 0dB, there is clipping and it is audible. Turning the master down might help to reduce clipping, but the track has not actually got any louder as a result.

So the threadstarter might be misunderstanding some concepts and best practise, so try helping rather than being pedantic over a detail and missing the bigger picture (i.e Correct gain staging).

[XSIMan]

[This provides zero sonic benefit.

you don't understand gain staging but that's not the point, you're just arguing.

I'm hardly arguing.

Whilst individual tracks in Live can go beyond 0dB and not clip, the master channel will in fact clip past 0dB and quite audibly, if you cannot hear this distortion, then the issue is not my understanding of gain staging, but your hearing. The same problem with clipping above 0dB will happen with plugins and causing plugins to clip because of high input volumes is incorrect gain staging, so to claim I do not understand it is absolutely ridiculous.

So in a thread regarding digital mastering, which involves getting as close to 0dB on the master channel as possible; If someone is merely turning the gain up and causing the master to peak above 0dB, there is clipping and it is audible. Turning the master down might help to reduce clipping, but the track has not actually got any louder as a result.

So the threadstarter might be misunderstanding some concepts and best practise, so try helping rather than being pedantic over a detail and missing the bigger picture (i.e Correct gain staging).

+1
You can go over 0db on all tracks including the master and it wont create clipping in Live but it can clip the plugins and if the Master goes over 0db that will make your sound card/ audio interface clip.

Clipping is nasty sounding . Put a simulated analogue tube amp or tape plugin on the master and hit that hard to get saturation. it's better sounding than clipping and makes it sound more live and loud. To stop plugins getting hit too hard but still have the output maxed I put Lives utility plugin before and after the plugin and lower gain before the plugin and increase the gain on the utility after the plugin.