Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
knotkranky
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:49 am

^ say it wussy.

Worst hall-monitor ever :roll:

Guillermo Barrancos
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Guillermo Barrancos » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:26 am

Tone Deft wrote:you never actually ordered a Push, you just read whining on the web. whatever...

retina display rants make me LOL, so much for overpriced hardware. too clever for its own good.

good luck!
I ordered Push back in March at a retailer, but they only got like 3 units, so I missed out on it.
And if you think that People With bad Luck and had to Return a defective unit and have to wait 3 months+ to get a replacement are whining....well I don´t know what to say. /shrug

So you don´t own a Laptop With HighRes display. I get it! Others have and deserve a patch that enables Retina support! Especially a year later.
We all paid good Money for Ableton Live.
And like I said, it´s not only Apple, you now also see Windows Laptops enter the scene with HighRes displays.
As example: http://www.samsung.com/global/ativ/ativbook9plus.html

You are a Perfect example of "Fanboi" that just trolls the forum and attacks everyone that has a different opinion and has critique against Ableton. You´re just a sad little prick. Grow up man!
Last edited by Guillermo Barrancos on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

kitekrazy
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by kitekrazy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:38 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
knotkranky wrote:They are investors, bankers and marketers that have last say after shit is designed. They changed the browser, not Henke.
it's marketing that would make the form/fit decisions. blame them for pushing content onto users and changing the browser. blame the slow performance on engineering. investors and bankers? that's tinfoil hat stuff.
The exception is Steve Ballmer running (ruining) Microsoft. Apple's favorite CEO.

kitekrazy
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by kitekrazy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:46 pm

knotkranky wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:
knotkranky wrote:It's tamed cuz Abes and the fanboys beat down the ballers. You, me and a bunch of fine users stretching live out and participating in its sideways evolution are simply tired. The changes ( i won't call them improvements other than Push ) are a boon for Abes. It is what it is. Fine, I get enough fun and music through the program regardless.

Live is still not a professional program for me. And ableton has proved time and again that they are a fanboy centric company that many professionals will use anyway. That sounds fine, but it's not a professional paradigm. If you put a VW beetle carburator on a Ferrari, it will accelerate like a VW beetle.


edit: plinkers was a harsh generalization. fixed^

You are so full of shit. What you forget, is that not everybody wants to use live the way you do. The primary reason I use live, is because i can write and mix music in the same environment that i will perform it on stage. If i didn't do that, there would be a ton of software for me to choose from. However, as it stands, there is currently NOTHING else available that will do that. Point at me and cry "fanboy" all you want, but i can assure you that i will be happy to try any product that can actually compete with live for the way I use it and if its better, i will switch right away. If it's not a professional program, please explain why 90% of electronic musicians i've seen perform in the last 5 years are using it?


There's a difference between constructive criticism of a product and saying the same bullshit over and over again -- "live isn't professional software" "the suits at ableton are intentionally fucking me to increase their bottom line" "fanboy fanboy fanboy"

face the facts, kranky, for all of its flaws, live is the only thing available that does what it does. You don't need it to do those things so just move on and use what works for you. I can't take pro tools or cubase on stage so i don't try to. and i don't go on their forums crying about how their companies are engaged in a conspiracy to ruin the experience for me because they only listen to crusty aging audio engineers who are rapidly losing relevance instead on making the kind of software that professional performing electronic musicians want to use.


there are a lot of people here that have very valid complaints about live and don't feel the need to be complete shit bags when they describe them and complain about them. You and simpliciwhatever just aren't among those.
You are so full of shit. What you forget, is that not everybody wants to use live the way you do. The primary reason I use live, is because….
Ok, first off, you're a blatant selfish hypocrite that didn't read my post at all. You saw keywords and went emotional fanboy. Btw, I regret the plinkers tag tho I'm really just a plinker on it too, but i require some serious improvements so that I may plink well!

Basically, you've said that my opinion, that I clarified was mine and only mine, is shite and yours is not. I'm fine with that distinction, but you are not. lol

If you really want to get my attention, or for those who actually read my posts, pick a point or two you don't like and lets scrap. But don't throw down a why live is great tirade when i'm using the fucking thing. C'mon man I deserve a better response that your patented retort to bitching users. Read my shit carefully. I deserve it.

I never said Live is not professional. Nope. I said it's not professional to "ME", cuz of the way i use it dude. Which by and large is not unreasonable. mkay.

Besides, Ableton doesn't have a defensible track record of fair releases n stuff. They are wholly unfair or disorganized in their practices. It's as unique as the program and a major pita. The hoop-jumping is off the hook! They deserve a swift kick in the ass while I tongue them with my wallet. Dig? Yes, they fucking deserve it. And they'll be fine no matter how rough it gets. They don't need your protection dude. But you do need to stop equivocating.

Please, Abes loves the fuck out of me with my 4 to 5 thousand dollars in Live since v1. So, lets dispense with the obvious and utterly unique attributes of live as fighting points. It's weak as fuck in helping what needs to be improved. I'm in your choir mate. If that's your argument, after your bitching about the browser, what good are you for influencing a better Live? You're not helping. You are precisely that fanboy that's in the way of progress. The browser protest is a good protest, but you won't allow it to go too far. It's simply reduced to forum banter that discourages the real experienced ballers. Not good. Not good at all.

Want to fix the browser? 50 user threads hovering on the front page for a few months from live users complaining on this very board might do wonders.

Raise hell everybody. Raise hell and change stuff. And let the experienced ballers do their thing and jump on their train people. It will benefit everybody. Cock-blocking such things means more of whatever the hell abes wants for you. Abes says they'll listen to you? Well then, be heard.

c'mon!....
Hopefully they didn't code the program that the only fix is to redo the whole thing which means that fix is called Live 10.

Angstrom
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:04 pm

On the subject of the browser, and why it is this way.

I don't think anyone is saying that the L9 Browser is designed as "marketing", or a sell-through channel for in-app purchases. My own personal view is that when the specification for the L9 browser was drawn up the use-cases were drawn too closely from within the Ableton team. You can imagine that for the team doing the Browser spec this particular organisation of content is exactly how they organise their content in house.

I assume that the team who designed this Browser did it with the broader intentions of "categorising content more sensibly", and "enabling quicker finding of content".

The problem is that their model of a user type was: the user who already knows what an item is called, and knows where it is stored, the user who does not want to move things, the user who is content to accept arbitrary linear categorisations.

What I am saying is the hypothetical end user is a model of an Ableton Staff member. Picture yourself working for a large organisation like this, it becomes implicit and unquestionable that Object A goes in the A bin, and Object D goes in the D bin, etc.

No Ableton coder could, or would, make the unilateral decision to start organising objects in a way that suits them "A reminds me of Aubergines, so it's going into my folder Dereks/Tubers". This is not a legitimate thought to follow in a coding team.

So they made a browser which perfectly suits the needs of a team member working within an organisation with a known and accepted established and immutable hierarchic file categorisation system. It's doubtful any staff member has a bespoke file structure with all their kicks organised by vegetabley-ness. Additionally Ableton staff never need to see a filtered view of "My Kicks" because all of the kicks are theirs (Abletons). To them, that particular user, the browser is perfect. Everything is in it's right place.

So it's simplistic to say "the browser is driven by marketing" because it's very unlikely it was a malevolent act. I believe that the current browser was simply the result of mistaking the Ableton team members categorisation and retrieval requirements for the needs of the actual (very disparate) user-base.

garyboozy
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by garyboozy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:21 pm

Angstrom wrote:
So they made a browser which perfectly suits the needs of a team member working within an organisation with a known and accepted established and immutable hierarchic file categorisation system.
aaaand inhale
Image

knotkranky
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:47 pm

Angstrom wrote:On the subject of the browser, and why it is this way.

I don't think anyone is saying that the L9 Browser is designed as "marketing", or a sell-through channel for in-app purchases. My own personal view is that when the specification for the L9 browser was drawn up the use-cases were drawn too closely from within the Ableton team. You can imagine that for the team doing the Browser spec this particular organisation of content is exactly how they organise their content in house.

I assume that the team who designed this Browser did it with the broader intentions of "categorising content more sensibly", and "enabling quicker finding of content".

The problem is that their model of a user type was: the user who already knows what an item is called, and knows where it is stored, the user who does not want to move things, the user who is content to accept arbitrary linear categorisations.

What I am saying is the hypothetical end user is a model of an Ableton Staff member. Picture yourself working for a large organisation like this, it becomes implicit and unquestionable that Object A goes in the A bin, and Object D goes in the D bin, etc.

No Ableton coder could, or would, make the unilateral decision to start organising objects in a way that suits them "A reminds me of Aubergines, so it's going into my folder Dereks/Tubers". This is not a legitimate thought to follow in a coding team.

So they made a browser which perfectly suits the needs of a team member working within an organisation with a known and accepted established and immutable hierarchic file categorisation system. It's doubtful any staff member has a bespoke file structure with all their kicks organised by vegetabley-ness. Additionally Ableton staff never need to see a filtered view of "My Kicks" because all of the kicks are theirs (Abletons). To them, that particular user, the browser is perfect. Everything is in it's right place.

So it's simplistic to say "the browser is driven by marketing" because it's very unlikely it was a malevolent act. I believe that the current browser was simply the result of mistaking the Ableton team members categorisation and retrieval requirements for the needs of the actual (very disparate) user-base.
And then there's beating on Ableton with negative speculation to force the issue. :wink:

Can the ableton design team be that myopic? If that's the case, I think I'm a helluva lot more worried 8O

joeyfivecents
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by joeyfivecents » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:23 am

What is a plinker? What does plink mean? I'm confused. I was skeptical about Live 9 because I was reading the forum too much I guess. I went ahead and got it and it works flawlessly for me. But hey, maybe I'm a plinker-whatever the f**k that means.
iMac, MacBook Pro, Live Suite, Reason, Logic Pro, Melodyne, FL Studio, iConnect Audio4+, Little Martin, ukelele, Fender Jaguar, pedalboard, amps, mics .
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produc3rboy
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by produc3rboy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:58 am

I don't regret moving to Live 9, but I will say one thing that bothered me. When I am trying to move selected tracks up or down, I can't scroll using the mouse while dragging like I used to be able to do in Live 8.

SuburbanThug
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by SuburbanThug » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:32 am

joeyfivecents wrote:What is a plinker? What does plink mean? I'm confused. I was skeptical about Live 9 because I was reading the forum too much I guess. I went ahead and got it and it works flawlessly for me. But hey, maybe I'm a plinker-whatever the f**k that means.
If I'm not incorrect a plinker is someone who makes music for fun and creative expression rather than profession. Live can obviously be used to make "professional" music but it is not tailored that way. It is tailored to live performance first, artistic expression second, and as a utilitarian DAW third. To me this is obvious when compared with Logic or Pro-Tools which are primarily used by people who have professions at stake and are built to be utilitarian tools. If professionals create something in Logic or Pro-Tools that does not benefit them financially or further their career in some way then it is a failure.

Live seems to still be in the realm of artistic expression that is less concerned with the utilitarian aspects of a DAW and more with the creative side. This is why the browser does not work well for a studio but works fine for the home user and why implementation of Max/MSP or the Glue compressor into the Suite package takes precedence over Plugin Delay Compensation and Dual Monitor Support.

Logic or Pro-Tools or Cubase are made to get the job done efficiently without unduly encouraging different paths of creativity. Live is for performing live first and for fostering creative electronic art music second. This is why Live is not a "studio-ready DAW." It is for the individual artist and geared towards fostering creativity rather than being a perfect tool to create pop music with. That is not to say that it doesn't make a powerful tool in the studio. It is to say that it's purpose is somewhat different than Logic or Pro-Tools and is not the first, second, or third choice for getting a job done when the meter is running so to speak.

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by re:dream » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:12 am

Wow.

There you have it, in one post. Clarity.

Thank you.

knotkranky
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:59 pm

SuburbanThug wrote:
joeyfivecents wrote:What is a plinker? What does plink mean? I'm confused. I was skeptical about Live 9 because I was reading the forum too much I guess. I went ahead and got it and it works flawlessly for me. But hey, maybe I'm a plinker-whatever the f**k that means.
If I'm not incorrect a plinker is someone who makes music for fun and creative expression rather than profession. Live can obviously be used to make "professional" music but it is not tailored that way. It is tailored to live performance first, artistic expression second, and as a utilitarian DAW third. To me this is obvious when compared with Logic or Pro-Tools which are primarily used by people who have professions at stake and are built to be utilitarian tools. If professionals create something in Logic or Pro-Tools that does not benefit them financially or further their career in some way then it is a failure.

Live seems to still be in the realm of artistic expression that is less concerned with the utilitarian aspects of a DAW and more with the creative side. This is why the browser does not work well for a studio but works fine for the home user and why implementation of Max/MSP or the Glue compressor into the Suite package takes precedence over Plugin Delay Compensation and Dual Monitor Support.

Logic or Pro-Tools or Cubase are made to get the job done efficiently without unduly encouraging different paths of creativity. Live is for performing live first and for fostering creative electronic art music second. This is why Live is not a "studio-ready DAW." It is for the individual artist and geared towards fostering creativity rather than being a perfect tool to create pop music with. That is not to say that it doesn't make a powerful tool in the studio. It is to say that it's purpose is somewhat different than Logic or Pro-Tools and is not the first, second, or third choice for getting a job done when the meter is running so to speak.
Holy Frick! Thank you.

And by that, and not so eloquently, I was trying to point out that serious users highly constructive criticisms are being crushed by the shear noise and weight of myopic fanboys. Fanboys are in the way. They shut all the smart talk down. There is no evolutionary path to Live from this forum. Except for ableton's huge army of low-bar users. Fanboys don't even know what they need, but there are so many, they actually get the nonsense feature upgrades they scream for. And that noise is well over the voices of really good dudes who know waayyyy more that will benefit the same fanboys ffs! So Ableton is listening. Right? Angstrom is a good example and there are plenty more dudes to listen too. I'm for whatever he needs in Live9. Ableton will only grease the wheel that squeaks the loudest. Frustrating after so many years.

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by SuburbanThug » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:02 pm

The browser isn't done yet though. It may end up benefiting large libraries eventually. I would think that's why they moved to indexing.

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:05 pm

hey kranky, some questions:

1) who exactly do you mean by "fanboys."

2) give me a specific example of how one would "shut all the smart talk down"




I don't entirely agree with suburbanThug, but his argument is rational and doesn't include the kind of fanboy finger pointing and ridiculous speculations about the inner workings of the company that you famously present, or the obvious bias of a troll like simp.


I don't understand you at all. You have bought every single update even though you complain that the program is near unusable for you every time. You complain that the browser is a way for ableton to sell you canned content, and then YOU BUY canned content. Why do you keep spending your money on a product you find to be so "unprofessional?" Are you a masochist? Is it cheaper than paying a dom to crush your balls with stiletto heels? I didn't even touch your claim of spending 5 thousand dollars on ableton updates or your claim that they have a track record of being "wholly unfair or disorganized in their practices."

I've owned the program since v2 and have never simply bought an upgrade because it was out, i have always tested them out first and weighed my options. Believe me, if i ever experienced the scope of problems with the software that someone like you claims to have, i wouldn't spend a dime on an upgrade.


Again, I do think that there are a lot of users offering constructive criticism here, I still don't believe that you are one of those. I haven't read a single thing from you that is a well articulated and specific argument. I've only read unfounded speculation and name calling. How do you figure that for the "smart talk" that is somehow going to do anything for live's future?
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by H20nly » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:45 pm

SuburbanThug wrote:Live seems to still be in the realm of artistic expression that is less concerned with the utilitarian aspects of a DAW and more with the creative side. This is why the browser does not work well for a studio but works fine for the home user and why implementation of Max/MSP or the Glue compressor into the Suite package takes precedence over Plugin Delay Compensation and Dual Monitor Support.

Logic or Pro-Tools or Cubase are made to get the job done efficiently without unduly encouraging different paths of creativity. Live is for performing live first and for fostering creative electronic art music second. This is why Live is not a "studio-ready DAW." It is for the individual artist and geared towards fostering creativity rather than being a perfect tool to create pop music with. That is not to say that it doesn't make a powerful tool in the studio. It is to say that it's purpose is somewhat different than Logic or Pro-Tools and is not the first, second, or third choice for getting a job done when the meter is running so to speak.
well put.

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