Climate Change & Einstein's - You cannot solve a problem ...

[myrnova]

For the record: how comes that in the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, the 80s and the 90s too the "democratic" U.S.A. have always supported neofascist dictatorships in southamerica, europe and asia?! Where is the logic?! The so-called "land of freedom and democracy" supporting fascism... uhm...



Let alone African Holocaust, or you come in your pants again for the joy

[andydes]

Well, it's kind of hard to know what to say at this point.

I'm out.

(Does this mean I lost?)

[myrnova]

Well, it's kind of hard to know what to say at this point.

I'm out.

(Does this mean I lost?)

my advise, if I can: learn what REALLY happend in serbia-bosnia and the crimes against humanity NATO committed.

Or... I don't know... listen to songs like DCD "amnesia" or such... always useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62x9jmkozqs

[regretfullySaid]

(Does this mean I lost?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... vEg#t=834s

[myrnova]

I guess we (european) have a more emotional and deep feeling about human pain, we rarely joke about war, violence, human feelings, victims, racism etc. I've noticed you (americans), on the contrary, are very often cynical, very aggressive and superficial when you have to face the truth and/or history (reaponsabilities, crimes etc.). Unless you have to "cry" for your so-called "huge" (?) interior "tragedies" (see the 9/11 brainstorming "taboo"). Otherwise, you laugh, mock etc. I have my personal idea about this attitude of yours, of course I seriously doubt german brainwashed people under the hitler's third reich were feeling "sorry" or "faulty" for their crimes and preferred to laugh and thinking they were the best "race" ever, that they could save and dominate the world because they were a special kind of people, respectful, noble, brave etc. I guess they had a sort of "faith" for hitler, the SS, wahrmacht etc. And they laughed about africans, different "lower" cultures... For me this is the reason. Infact as soon as Hitler was difeated, they just felt as if they were "waking up" (social "mass mind control"). In my opinion the U.S.A. state is a pseudonazi one, only at the n degree: see how americans read history, disrespect the rest of the world, mocking other cultures, being cynically indifferent about sofference etc. Unfortunately what confirms my mind is the fact the U.S.A. have always supported and helped neofascist dictatorships and teaching them to use torture and terrorism (see south america, asia, italy, spain, portugal, chile, iran, africa etc.). Sounds strange the "land of democracy" helps and supports fascists, huh?

For the record, in Italy the best fan of the U.S.A. is Berlusconi, together with the Church and the neofascist party. I guess why... mmm...

[myrnova]

NATO commited crimes against humanity there. The guy here claims serbian young generation people are "happy" about that... I wouldn't be so sure if i were him... Anti-americanism is still very strong and common there, not only for Serbian "atavic" nationalism (Serbia and Croatia are the last "nationalistic" countries in the world, together with the U.S.A.), but for NATO and U.S.A. crimes against population. I don't know which serbians he met Maybe some "loopstationserbia" ones or such?

Oh, and just to be clear: the italian fascists in the 30s commited crimes in that area. Well, at least they were fascists, aka pigs... Didn't pretend to be "the land of freedom"...

[andydes]

Well it was Britain, France, Germany and Italy who messed up the Balkans in the first place and stirred up the ethnic tensions. I'm talking 19th century here, up to WW1, which naturally started in the Balkans, where the British were trying to stir up problems for Germany. Anyway, don't let the others here us saying this, they'll think we've gone soft.

This is an interesting point. So we fucked things up in the 19th century. Is there going to a point sometime in the distant future where we won't be to responsible for any evil shit that happens there?

While I acknowledge that these issues can last for generations, when people point to history as the cause for everything, aren't they partially absolving those that committed the crimes from blame?

If so, I guess we can't hold America responsible for what they do, because we fucked them up in the first place.

[andydes]

NATO commited crimes against humanity there. The guy here claims serbian young generation people are "happy" about that... I wouldn't be so sure if i were him... Anti-americanism is still very strong and common there, not only for Serbian "atavic" nationalism (Serbia and Croatia are the last "nationalistic" countries in the world, together with the U.S.A.), but for NATO and U.S.A. crimes against population. I don't know which serbians he met Maybe some "loopstationserbia" ones or such?

Oh, and just to be clear: the italian fascists in the 30s commited crimes in that area. Well, at least they were fascists, aka pigs... Didn't pretend to be "the land of freedom"...

I notice you say there's still anti Americanism in Serbia. No mention of how the Bosnians and Croatians feel about it. Anyway, I wasn't talking about how they feel towards America, but that in general, they don't seem to be in a big hurry to start killing each other again.

[Machinesworking]

This is a shit hole.

A: Most Americans, and especially most Americans on this, a music forum recognize the horror of US policy decisions, and lean left, (or libertarian if they lean right).

B: Like all your smaller countries there is a slight advantage of the nationalist right (or 'conservative' left) over the left and moderates in politics because of nationalistic interests and the fact that nationalism isn't dead anywhere.

C: Because of this slightly less than 50% of the country watches in disappointment and shock as the US military oversteps it's boundaries again and again.

D: With the natural anonymity of the internet, this is what you encounter, foreign countrymen blithely attacking US policy, and people. As if the whole thing was now one countries fault.

E: All of you, every single European nation out there, props up and supports our actions, by at least that same 51% majority that we deal with, yet it's our fault, it's our country alone, and our nationalism that causes all problems world wide.

F: Tell me again how nationalism is dead everywhere but in the USA, while ignoring again your own countries total complicity in our actions?

[myrnova]

NATO commited crimes against humanity there. The guy here claims serbian young generation people are "happy" about that... I wouldn't be so sure if i were him... Anti-americanism is still very strong and common there, not only for Serbian "atavic" nationalism (Serbia and Croatia are the last "nationalistic" countries in the world, together with the U.S.A.), but for NATO and U.S.A. crimes against population. I don't know which serbians he met Maybe some "loopstationserbia" ones or such?

Oh, and just to be clear: the italian fascists in the 30s commited crimes in that area. Well, at least they were fascists, aka pigs... Didn't pretend to be "the land of freedom"...

I notice you say there's still anti Americanism in Serbia. No mention of how the Bosnians and Croatians feel about it. Anyway, I wasn't talking about how they feel towards America, but that in general, they don't seem to be in a big hurry to start killing each other again.

You are wrong. Besides, I had a house in Croatia, since I live next to that land. Croatia is unfortunately very closed-minded in terms of "cultural melting-pot "... a litlle "Texas" in a way, very nationalistic. But you are wrong, croatia had a very small part in bosnia-erzegovina war. Politically speaking they have a sort of KKK christian ideology, very dangerous... it is like... I don't know... like a small alabama, or smth. Of course they count for nothing as a nation respect to U.S.A. but very similar regaarding "national pride" and all that idiot crap. Let alone Serbia!

[myrnova]

Well it was Britain, France, Germany and Italy who messed up the Balkans in the first place and stirred up the ethnic tensions. I'm talking 19th century here, up to WW1, which naturally started in the Balkans, where the British were trying to stir up problems for Germany. Anyway, don't let the others here us saying this, they'll think we've gone soft.

This is an interesting point. So we fucked things up in the 19th century. Is there going to a point sometime in the distant future where we won't be to responsible for any evil shit that happens there?

While I acknowledge that these issues can last for generations, when people point to history as the cause for everything, aren't they partially absolving those that committed the crimes from blame?

If so, I guess we can't hold America responsible for what they do, because we fucked them up in the first place.

In a sense, with some little differences: (1) you did not drop any nuclear bomb, just being conservative you were idiotic antirevolutionars (see the French Revolution and Napoleon). Infact even nowadays, due to that, you drive in that funny way, on the left, and have those strange "gallon", "inch" etc. (2) you had commonwealth. (3) You were/are a reign, not "the land of freedom and democracy". At least you exploited colonies, had not "exporting democracy" poor excuses to commit your crimes This does not mean UK did not commit crimes. oh, if they did, expecially in AMERICA ("New England"?), Africa and Asia.... AND HOW!

[andydes]

You're just playing with words andydes. You don't try to convey any real meaning with that last sentence, because there is none. You can't compare America with the Balkans. Therefore I will not ask you to elaborate. Yes these things last for generations. Nobody is absolving perpetrators of crimes there by explaining the history of the sectarian strife.

Not playing with words, exploring the idea of how we think about world events. Sometimes a stupid example can highlight a point.

100 years ago we messed around in the bulkans. We don't feel much responsibility for the comparatively recent ethnic violence.
60 years we created Israel. We accept that this was the cause of the current problems. Many people like to say everything that happens there is all our fault.
10 years ago, we invade Iraq. Everyone agrees we've unleashed yet another load of ethnic violence.

So does our responsibility for current events deteriorate slowly over time from when we were involved?
Is there something that needs to happen so we can say, OK, from this point it's all your own doing?

I'm not arguing here and I don't claim to have a definitive answer. Just interested in what people think about it, because past grievances cause a lot of hurt in the world.

[andydes]

The only way to say anything sensible on this kind of thing is to be objective about the past and the present, and to point to solutions. It is not a straight line or a exponential curve. There is no cutoff point. Divisions created by colonial rule can die away only to resurface again later. They will only die away completely when you remove the material conditions which sectarian strife thrives in, namely poverty, inequality and the like.

Nicely put. That's pretty much how I feel. But some people do like to just point the finger and say "this is all your fault."

I wonder if I'll still feel a pang off guilt when a bomb goes off in Baghdad in 50 years?

[Forge.]

[
When labour lurched suddenly to the center, people noticed straight away. It wasn't all that subtle. They left a gaping hole in UK politics, that still hasn't been filled. It must be worth at least 20% of the vote.

I thought that was exactly what the lib dems were supposed to be, and they did get that protest vote and then betrayed the whole country by joining the tories.

[krulecello]

The direction that this thread has taken has not surprised me at all, in fact, I was relying on it doing so. (It's a reproducible exercise, as the 'Lounge' can attest to)

I don't understand why you are claiming the thread has taken a "direction", as if it was somethng different. Forget the trolls (shadx something, jmcock, loostationzebra and others). Don't you think your thread ("climate change going beyond dangerous") and U.S.A. policy are related? I remember you the U.S.A. are the main responsable for this disaster: they have always refused to collaborate with the other countries, keeping on producing CO2 and spreading poison on the planet, in particular nuclear waste and oil. U.S.A. alone produce 38% of the entire pollution in the world. They always refuse UN resolutions for peace, progress and collaboration: both the ones against pollution and the one against malnutrition and death for disease in poor countries. They want to decide on everything and be the masters, see when they refused to give anti aids medicines in Africa causing millions dead, see kyoto protocol, see their criminal policies against so called "third world" debt, which is practically a new form of slavery: we can call it a holocaust. They guide and decide the policy of the I.M.F. which has caused the african holocaust and strangled exonomy in south america. They have always supported fascist dictatorships and obliged poor countries to follow neoliberal criminal policies. They spend something like 4.000.000.000 $ a year for war and weapons, most of them non-conventional. They start wars for nothing as soon as little events happen (see the twin towers). They used that little new york attack as a good excuse to begin a criminal war, brainwashing people that it is a "huge tragedy" or smth. When they have killed million of innocent people all over the world. Is that shit right and human? For me not, seems like the nazi germany: the rest of the world pretended not to see what happened in Germany, even if they knew well what was going on. What's the difference in terms of crimes?

Most of what you say I agree with (yes, there are great similarities between what happened in Germany and what is happening with the U.S.A and world wide). And it would certainly be good to see an influx of rebellious youth with backbones (passion, integrity, etc) in the not too distant future...

... although, I'm wondering if the proliferation of 'smart' devices will eventually see an evolutionary step backwards, via brain shrinkage (through non use), and perhaps the resulting smaller head size will negate the need for a backbone too, and the excessive laziness exhibited by car drivers will obviously negate the need for legs, which will, of course, lead some to the discovery that they can give themselves enormous pleasure, which will become their life purpose.

My view is one of personal responsibility. People are creating the world every day with their actions and some peoples actions (ie, wealthy populations, 25% of world population) have a disproportionate (read. massive) effect on the rest on the rest of the world (other people, flora, fauna, landscapes, climate, atmosphere, etc). I see this, it saddens me, but there is little that I can do to change others, I can, however, change myself, the way I see things, my thinking, feelings, actions. In my opinion, this is the ultimate in power and freedom.

Those that wish to tell me (or think it privately) that my actions are a waste of time (although admirable) generally feel powerless (or nihilistic) because they have handed over their own personal responsibility to an external authority. How can someone who has done this ever understand the joy of true freedom? (rhetorical).

In order to solve the problem of climate change (which is the 'same' problem that creates wars, poverty, the various 'isms' and ideologies), one needs to understand what caused the problem in the first place.

So, myrnova, as I have said before, I fully support you, I will enjoy watching and reading all that you post for as long as you choose to (or until they ban you). I like your style.
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Einstein

"You cannot solve a problem with the same level of consciousness (intelligence/thinking) that created it."