krulecello wrote:
On Poverty -
"At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day."
"The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income."
"Approximately half the world’s population now live in cities and towns. In 2005, one out of three urban dwellers (approximately 1 billion people) was living in slum conditions."
"World's richest 20% consume 76.8%, World's middle 60% consume 21.9% and World's poorest 20% consume 1.5%"
Yes, I totally agree - and to me
this is the biggest challenge we face.
This is priority number 1. If we don't fix this, then everything else is totally pointless, and this is I think where I get the most pessemistic.
But believe it or not poverty is actually decreasing. We are slowly levelling the playing field in some ways.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d7a1c52-8cc5 ... z2YVQNtmX7
My point is more about the fact that RIGHT NOW in 2013 de-industrializing would almost certainly throw more people into hardship, cause massive starvation and unrest, at least in the immediate future.
Personally I think all people on the planet should have the right to demand the kind of comfortable life we have here and the challenge is making that possible without destroying the planet. I believe it could be possible technically and in terms of resources, if we were determined enough, but I'm not that convinced the necessary willing is there.
What do you think is going to happen as more and more of these poorest people start to get access to the western lifestyle? Do you think they are going to say "no I won't use a car because it will hurt the environment"?
Whether it's right or wrong, or whether you like it or not, the industrialized world, richest and most powerful nations, i.e. us, are in the leading position here. If we don't fix our system and weed out some of the corruption and start taking more direct action in terms of legisating to protect people and the planet then there is no hope of that migrating to the developing world (or "global south" as the Sociologists apparently call it now). We need to make sure that WHEN millions/billions of people start demanding the life they are entitled to, like anyone, that it is clean, efficient technology they are using.
What you are arguing is tantamount to saying to all these billions of people "well we've enjoyed all these privileges for all this time, but you can't now because of the environment. Sorry. Tough luck. But you're used to being poor anyway, right?" I think given the Imperial behaviour we have been inflicting on the world and still are even now there will be a resounding "fuck you" from everyone.
Seriously, think about that. There is no way you will stop all these people getting cars if they can afford them. Look at how much India has grown in recent years. Their middle class is now something like 400 million people, that's almost the whole of Europe, and bigger than the US, Canada, UK and Australia all put together. Are you really trying to tell them that they shouldn't get a taste of what we've had all this time? Good luck with that.
I definitely agree that the kind of things Earthloop has been talking about - localizing everything from energy to communal gardens etc is a very good idea and that is definitely the direction things need to go in. But we could have that and still be technologically advanced. We can clean up industrial production and counter the effects, there are all kinds of things in the works for doing that. What is needed is continued and increased pressure for that to happen.
This is why I felt the need to argue the point with you. You have gone beyond stage1 on to stage 3 or 4 or whatever and seem to be forgetting how far behind most people are. You seem to be actually arguing that there is no point in lobbying for clean technology because we need to abandon all technology. That's just a total fantasy. It just isn't going to happen. What IS going to happen over the next 20+ years is more and more people will be coming online worldwide consuming at an increasingly 1st world rate. We (as a planet) need to make damn sure when they do that the methods of energy production they are using, which will be largely constructed by western companies, will be as green as is possible.
This task — the task of keeping the pressure on our own governments and industry to go as green as possible is a MONUMENTAL task, so to hear that an environmentalist like yourself doesn't even see that as a priority because you are spending your time trying to achieve the impossible by convincing people who haven't even decided there's any need to do anything at all to give up their cars and air travel and technology is atually quite disheartening. Which is pretty Ironic, seeing as you are actually physically doing more than most on a personal level.
In other words - the only thing I'm
really arguing with you about is the fact that you say there is no point including governments in the plan or developing green tech.
