Climate Change & Einstein's - You cannot solve a problem ...

[regretfullySaid]

I have to say though that millions of people who's occupations depend on transport can't just be flipped.
I don't mean the millions of people who don't need to drive and should use a bike (which would help significantly), but people who need to haul a bunch of material in the back of their trucks in even less than 20 mile radius. Swapping their engine for something more friendly is an option, but highly unlikely, while a lengthier transition thanks to mass manufacturing seems more obvious. Either way, some transition time has to happen. Doesn't mean it can't happen in a 5-10 year span. I'm sure a lot of people can't remember what life was like without iPads, but look how much that changed things overnight, and that wasn't long ago.

[Forge.]

Well, regardless of whatever's going on here, that skit is fucking hilarious.

Now,

Yes Shadx, don't you see? 'When all else fails, a pig headed stubborn refusal to look facts in the face, will see us through'

Whoa, Nelly. I'm on my side. I just agree or disagree with what I see on a case by case basis.

I think it's important to keep both of your sides in mind because all perspectives are welcome when it comes to problem solving. I guess I see you both at extremes, and imo the reality is in between the 2.
No, planes, trains and autombiles will not go extinct. The way I see it is they will be a lot less frequent, reserved for special and necessary purposes (or just very expensive to have a license) and they will also be more environmentally friendly. The more time passes, the more cars dwindle. I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

Specifically though as far as POV is concerned, my headspace is very simple and specific to the intent. I don't care about the specifics. I don't really care about statistics or reasons why there's no point, because to me just taking any part in being cleaner and more efficient is the point, and in that sense, whether it's pointless or not, it's a win win situation, because at least I'm still improving my area. I don't care who is or isn't doing it because my life is my life and I'm going to live it the way I want. So if an asteroid is about to hit in an hour I'm still going to keep my plastic and glass separate. Call me a nutcase, I don't care, cuz to me intent is the important thing. And fuck the herd.

well, I specifically don't want to be any extreme. Exact opposite - I'm trying to speak for balance and actually advocating things that will actually make a difference. Rather than saying "fuck the herd" I'm actually going further on that to include all humans within that herd. I just don't see how it's even vaguely fair to think it's right to deny people only just getting their chance at the lifestyle we've had for a long time because we've fucked things up for everyone. We could all abandon our industrial way of life overnight and go back to an agrarian lifestyle, but the cat is out of the bag - it's too late for that now because the rest of the world is expanding at a rate of knots. The only actual option is a course correction that includes everyone.

[Forge.]

I have to say though that millions of people who's occupations depend on transport can't just be flipped.
I don't mean the millions of people who don't need to drive and should use a bike (which would help significantly), but people who need to haul a bunch of material in the back of their trucks in even less than 20 mile radius. Swapping their engine for something more friendly is an option, but highly unlikely, while a lengthier transition thanks to mass manufacturing seems more obvious. Either way, some transition time has to happen. Doesn't mean it can't happen in a 5-10 year span. I'm sure a lot of people can't remember what life was like without iPads, but look how much that changed things overnight, and that wasn't long ago.

this is the point. The entire world economy depends on oil and fossil fuels. Are we ready for the kind of crash that would happen if we abandon that overnight? If we're worried about the people in the 3rd world living off rubbish tips, we'd start seeing that kind of thing in front of us.

The other thing is the industrialized world we live in now is what will enable us to develop other things to try and reverse some of the damage already done.

We are at a threshold point. Things could actually go really well if we get our shit together. But that's a big IF. This next half-century will be the decider which way it goes really.

Take 3D printing for example - we're going to see the development of a lot more localized production and people doing things themselves and less reliance on major factories. But it will take time and the materials they require will still need factory production, at least for a while. That's one example that fits into Earthloop's suggestions of localizing everything.

But again, this is why I see priority 1 as public pressure and education and awareness so that A LOT more people are pushing for action on this. So much power is currently so heavily concentrated in the hands of a small few who not only don't care about any of this, but often actually sabotage it.

[krulecello]

so now you're saying it's a total waste of time even being optimistic?

whatever, from that response it seems you're not actually interested in properly debating or talking about these issues reasonably. That's a shame.

this is why we are probably doomed. If active and motivated people like you can't even stand to talk to someone who mostly agrees but has a different view to yours, then you've got no chance of persuading a climate skeptic LNP voter.

Well, you just carry on making yourself feel better and sod everyone else then.

Victim

[krulecello]

wow. I spent all that time bothering to have that conversation with you because I actually thought you seemed intelligent and worth having a real conversation with and now you come out with shit like this.

The editing was because I wrote so much and took so much of my time and I'm quite compulsive with spelling and writing clearly etc because large amounts of text like that just wont get read otherwise.

But I think I'm probably done wasting my time on you now given your attitude here.

Victim

[krulecello]

The editing was because I wrote so much and took so much of my time and I'm quite compulsive with spelling and writing clearly etc because large amounts of text like that just wont get read otherwise.

I got to read it before the 7 edits.

well, then why did you make the comment about changing my mind? you would know I didn't change my overall argument, i just edited it to either make it clearer, fix spelling, or because I decided there was no need to say a certain point... i.e. the Tassie story which I guess you read... the point of that still stands and you kind of proved the point just now why I should have probably just left it in

In fact I took some things out specifically because I realised in text it sounds a bit aggressive or like an attack, and that is not my intention.

You have a tendency to position yourself as the victim (yes, to your credit, sometimes you change your mind and edit).
You have a tendency to blame governments and corporations for the current state of things whilst conveniently ignoring your complicity in the situation.
You have a tendency to ignore the physical reality / facts when forging your arguments.
You have a tendency to make sweeping and unsubstantiated statements in support of your world view.

Your world view is based on the ideology that if you were to stand on an 80 story building, jump off and flap your arms really fast, you would fly.

My world view is based on the physical reality that if I did the same thing, I would fall to my death, so I choose not to do so.

"Blame No-one, Expect Nothing, Do Something"

[krulecello]

So much power is currently so heavily concentrated in the hands of a small few who not only don't care about any of this, but often actually sabotage it.

Victim

[krulecello]

VICTIM

[Forge.]

sounds like I touched a nerve with my Tassie story then...

[krulecello]

VICTIM

[krulecello]

VICTIM

[krulecello]

VICTIM

[Forge.]

are you myrnova under another login?

FFS....

[krulecello]

VICTIMS

[regretfullySaid]

I just don't see how it's even vaguely fair to think it's right to deny people only just getting their chance at the lifestyle we've had for a long time because we've fucked things up for everyone.

I disagree. That seems backwards to me, actually. How I read it is
"Hey there, 3rd world person in poverty. Go ahead and poison yourself and the world around you because it was fun. We've already been there and have changed for the better but dive on in, you missed a lot."
I'm willing to bet a lot of 3rd world poverty people won't care about living that kind of life. Word gets around quickly, they don't have to see what kind of damage we've been doing to ourselves with their own eyes.

but the cat is out of the bag

lots of cats have been out of many bags in the past, it doesn't mean we have to keep them alive.

The only actual option is a course correction that includes everyone.

How do you know that's the only actual option? Everyone is not realistic anyway. Some will not care to play, fuck em. You either do your part or you don't. If you don't, someone may save you but don't be surprised to be an example of shame.

The entire world economy depends on oil and fossil fuels. Are we ready for the kind of crash that would happen if we abandon that overnight? If we're worried about the people in the 3rd world living off rubbish tips, we'd start seeing that kind of thing in front of us.

I doubt they'll be gone overnight, I think they'll be used to the last drop, and then they'll be gone and in my lifetime, so whether it's gone overnight or not seems irrelevant to me. Seems like the smart thing to do is start transitioning what I can to not rely on them anyway. And we are seeing that kind of thing in front of us. The point is to do anything you can to minimize your waste and consumption as feasibly possible. I'm not talking about getting rid your car, I'm just talking about being efficient with energy, food, trash. And really, with some research and ingenuity it's cheaper and healthier to be efficient. Any little bit helps. You don't have to be an ascetic living in a cave. It always seems like the biggest thing that stops people from doing something they aren't used to is the preconception that they have to change their lifestyle or it will take a lot of work, like old people with computers.
They don't bother trying to remember how to email because they're always thinking, "this contraption is too complicated, I'll never learn it." It's a self-defeating mentality.

We are at a threshold point. Things could actually go really well if we get our shit together. But that's a big IF. This next half-century will be the decider which way it goes really.

Ok well, while you're hoping for the best are you planning for the worst?

So much power is currently so heavily concentrated in the hands of a small few who not only don't care about any of this, but often actually sabotage it.

All the more reason to be self-reliant and DIY. I get the realism and how things can work in the long term if they go according to plan, but what about the meantime and what if they don't go according to plan? We just going to sit around twiddling our dicks and making excuses? In that time you can still make a tangible improvement in your direct vicinity, if you want to. It's your life, you don't have to, either way it may not make a difference. I mean, if I had to choose how to spend my time between people working on improving their world vs people who had excuses not to based on realism, I'd spend my time with the former. At worst, it's something to do. Not trying to make you sound like a lazy asshole or anything. If anything, it's reasonably sound attitude I think the majority of people share.
The thing is to me, it just sounds like excuses not to bother with any of it and just wait for whatever comes to come and that's that. I'm probably thinking of it in extreme terms and I know talk is cheap.

Anyway, too bad she went all 9V on us. Started out so nice, too, then this.