Unintended Consequences: Swiss Edition

[nathannn]

@Funk N. Furter



@nathannn

I asked Machinesworking a simple question: WHY are monopolies bad?

You interpreted this as Steve thinks monopolies are good.

You failed to understand/answer the question.

Grade: F

no... "!" ...? ......!.......!!......you made me look like an ass for the last time ........damn you!
you are just too clever.

That whole posting a pic of your prized first born counting to potato was too much.

[Steve Ballmer]

That whole posting a pic of your prized first born counting to potato was too much.

^ this

[Steve Ballmer]

Do I really need to say why private monopolies are bad?

You don't need to do anything. Ain't no commies in tha hizzle.

[andydes]

Private monopolies allow companies to fix prices, or only supply to whoever they want to.

Groups of companies can get together and do the same. This is called a cartel.

So is a completely open free market the answer? Companies compete to provide goods and services driving down cost. Sounds good so far, but they can compete by paying shitty wages, compromising safety, dumping waste, taking enormous risks with finances for short term gain, etc. Can we trust the market to make ethical choices about all this? Can we fuck.

This is why we have regulation to tell companies how to behave.

People often say regulation is bad for competition. They are wrong. Well thought out regulation only penalizes the companies with bad practices by making them play by the same rules as more ethical companies. It levels the playing field.

I love regulation.

ISO rocks.

[earthloop]

Private monopolies allow companies to fix prices, or only supply to whoever they want to.

Groups of companies can get together and do the same. This is called a cartel.

So is a completely open free market the answer? Companies compete to provide goods and services driving down cost. Sounds good so far, but they can compete by paying shitty wages, compromising safety, dumping waste, taking enormous risks with finances for short term gain, etc. Can we trust the market to make ethical choices about all this? Can we fuck.

This is why we have regulation to tell companies how to behave.

People often say regulation is bad for competition. They are wrong. Well thought out regulation only penalizes the companies with bad practices by making them play by the same rules as more ethical companies. It levels the playing field.

I love regulation.

ISO rocks.

Agree with all of the above PLUS one added ingredient which sits at the base of the continued existence of human (indeed, all) life on Earth...and that ingredient is defined by one word...DIVERSITY!!! Google it...no, wait...I have done it for you! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity

The very core of our continued existence is based on the concept of diversity...initially at a genetic level, but as an advanced life form socially, we MUST have a social environment within which there exists opportunity for a diversity of thought, opinion, lifestyle etc because it is only through diversity in all these things we can continue to develop and evolve toward becoming masters of the universe...immortal and totally organised..oh wait,,,oops, sorry...that was the Swiss Edition/version...so sorry...I am so fucking sorry,,,,,,

..now, where was I ...oh yes: we need diversity to be creative, and, umm, keep making new things! Anyway, take some time out from this forum and actually read the various definitions of Diversity in the Wikipedia link and realise that Monopolies are bad because they are antipathetic to life itself ... it is a genetic fact of life @STEVE!!!

[H20nly]

Private monopolies allow companies to fix prices, or only supply to whoever they want to.

Groups of companies can get together and do the same. This is called a cartel.

So is a completely open free market the answer? Companies compete to provide goods and services driving down cost. Sounds good so far, but they can compete by paying shitty wages, compromising safety, dumping waste, taking enormous risks with finances for short term gain, etc. Can we trust the market to make ethical choices about all this? Can we fuck.

This is why we have regulation to tell companies how to behave.

People often say regulation is bad for competition. They are wrong. Well thought out regulation only penalizes the companies with bad practices by making them play by the same rules as more ethical companies. It levels the playing field.

I love regulation.

ISO rocks.

What regulation? There is no regulation. Deregulation started under Thatcher 30 years ago. It culminated in the global capitalist crisis of the last 5 years, which still continues.

You are right that the free market is as bad as private monopolies, but wrong about placing your faith in the ability or desire of governments to regulate capitalism. A mistake sadly made by the reformist left time and again, with disastrous consequences. The typical scenario is that a reformist party or leader is elected, they end up forced to do dirty deeds for the capitalists, and then in protest and desperation the masses vote in a right wing government, as the 'left' discredits itself.

+1 to andydes



Q: what do you do when you put up a fence and after a few years it leans to one side
A: adjust it

rinse/repeat.

funken, i get the impression from your posts that you think there is a once and for all fix... a final solution. there was a leader who had one of those once too.

[Steve Ballmer]

funken, i get the impression from your posts that you BRAIN FART there is a once and for all fix... a final solution. there was a leader who had one of those once too.

FYP

[Steve Ballmer]

@andydes

I believe you'd find, were you to take a brief glance at history, that governments have a much poorer "ethical" track record than any state-independent company you could care to mention. I invite you to prove me otherwise.

[earthloop]

Private monopolies allow companies to fix prices, or only supply to whoever they want to.

Groups of companies can get together and do the same. This is called a cartel.

So is a completely open free market the answer? Companies compete to provide goods and services driving down cost. Sounds good so far, but they can compete by paying shitty wages, compromising safety, dumping waste, taking enormous risks with finances for short term gain, etc. Can we trust the market to make ethical choices about all this? Can we fuck.

This is why we have regulation to tell companies how to behave.

People often say regulation is bad for competition. They are wrong. Well thought out regulation only penalizes the companies with bad practices by making them play by the same rules as more ethical companies. It levels the playing field.

I love regulation.

ISO rocks.

What regulation? There is no regulation. Deregulation started under Thatcher 30 years ago. It culminated in the global capitalist crisis of the last 5 years, which still continues.

You are right that the free market is as bad as private monopolies, but wrong about placing your faith in the ability or desire of governments to regulate capitalism. A mistake sadly made by the reformist left time and again, with disastrous consequences. The typical scenario is that a reformist party or leader is elected, they end up forced to do dirty deeds for the capitalists, and then in protest and desperation the masses vote in a right wing government, as the 'left' discredits itself.

Funk N.. I have to agree with you in principle here...but I depart from the 'pure' socialist perspective because I have just recently realised that think I am actually an Anarchist (albeit, a very social one ) I see the future of real democracy (in all things) residing in the ability of people to decide, individually or collectively, to appropriate the primary 'means of production' of both the material and social needs of life. And the way to do that is through knowledge: through training in technology (like renewable energy systems...a primary means of production) and communications (like we are doing now).

The world IS changing...there is a global revolution happening! The only difference between this revolution and ones from the past is that there is a new paradigm in terms of who can participate in this revolution...and the scale of it. This difference has been created by technology, and specifically by communications technology like the internet...and the realisation that we (the common people...t.y. Pulp) can actually go out and buy technology (solar panels...micro wind turbines...etc) and actually survive without having to depend on the traditional owners of the means of production of the basic means of survival. I could go on about food production, hospitals etc and other things but that would end up taxing internet users attention spans

TRUST ME! We now have more ways to create a counter culture than existed back in the late sixties when that idea was first tried on a mass scale. O.K. That's enough for now...why on earth do I bother to write this much on a forum like this...and stay up so late...

[Steve Ballmer]

@andydes

I believe you'd find, were you to take a brief glance at history, that governments have a much poorer "ethical" track record than any state-independent company you could care to mention. I invite you to prove me otherwise.

I think you'll find that's because there is no such thing as a state-independent company, and your so-called state-independent companies tell the governments to do the dodgy things I already mentioned.

A good example is the British Labour governments. From 'socialist' to Tory-lite in two generations.

I was actually a teenager in the Winter of Discontent. I remember the blackouts. That's where andydes' reformism leads.

Before Callaghan, Wilson said that he was forced to do what the banks wanted, and he was scared of a military coup.

You're missing the point.

[Steve Ballmer]

What is the point?

The thing that you missed.

[andydes]

What regulation? There is no regulation. Deregulation started under Thatcher 30 years ago. It culminated in the global capitalist crisis of the last 5 years, which still continues.

You are right that the free market is as bad as private monopolies, but wrong about placing your faith in the ability or desire of governments to regulate capitalism. A mistake sadly made by the reformist left time and again, with disastrous consequences. The typical scenario is that a reformist party or leader is elected, they end up forced to do dirty deeds for the capitalists, and then in protest and desperation the masses vote in a right wing government, as the 'left' discredits itself.

Seriously? There's regulation everywhere. In many cases it's constantly being tightened and improved. Eg.

How to depose of waste.
What materials you can use in your products.
What safeguards are included to avoid people electrocuting/dismembering/blinding/burning themselves on your products.
Allowable levels of various shit in water supplies.
How to build stuff without it falling down.
How to test pharmaceuticals.

There's always room for improvement, but when you hear about some fucking big industrial disaster or drug trial gone wrong, it's often because someone ignored the rules.

There's other types of regulation which have gone the other way, of course. Employee rights and the financial activities of companies in the global economy, being two obvious examples. But there's signs that people are getting wise to how far things have gotten out of control in that regard. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet, that things can't be improved.

[Steve Ballmer]

There's nothing to be ashamed of in admitting that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Which makes it all the more droll that you're still trying to pretend otherwise.

[andydes]

H2. Socialism is a long process that would take several generations to even get establish, let alone arrive at the long term goal. If that goal (no money, countries, governments etc) was ever achieved, we don't know what way society might develop after that.

I'm curious as to how far you'd be willing to push the socialism thing?

I'm fully up for state owned energy, transport, water, health, etc. Everything that's essential for infrastructure certainly. Probably chemical, pharmaceuticals or other industries in a position to do a lot of damage if they are run purely for profit.

But state owned clothing companies?
State owned electronics companies?
State owned music software developers?

Or God forbid, in the worst kind of communist nightmare:

State run pubs?
State run festivals?

[docprosper]

Socialism with luxury items for individuals?!?