There are no guitarists at Ableton (are there?)

[Buleriachk]

Otherwise they would have made a scale layout like a guitar, for us really persnickety Luddites....
(The way they did it makes more sense, though, if you don't need accidentals. Still.........

(AT LEAST a V7 (dominant 7th) chord button for the relative minor (AM) while in the key of C Major to change third temporarily to a G#)

And then maybe a Circle Of Fifths button....

And they also didn't make the function of the spacebar accessible to a foot switch (play/stop)...
Yeah, they're probably just a bunch of music theory and ex-keyboard guys....



(added)
I would like to see is a user mode where the neck is laid out (InKey, chromatically, or full scale) like a guitar, with the bottom six rows representing the strings.

The remaining buttons could be used for a number of things:
(or allow one to reconfigure a couple of buttons on Push for all the other keys)

1. to change the third of the III chord in a major key (Em) (E7,V7 in relative minor) to conform to the relative minor and back again (an accidental) with a temporary press, so one could have instant axis to both scales... perhaps with a color indication on the button...

2. to move keys around the Circle of Fifths rather than chromatically (top two rows) - fifths if cw, fourths if ccw), automatically setting (1) to the correct functionality as the Circle of Fifths is navigated.

[H20nly]

i'll give you two standard responses...


1) Max4Live

2) Bitwig


don't hold your breath on that last one.

[Buleriachk]

Do they have one already? To lay out the grid like a guitar neck with all the key centers indicated?
(it would have to be a Python script, I think...)

i'll give you two standard responses...
1) Max4Live

[H20nly]

i'm not sure... but i seriously would think that if you're going to find something that would be the way... you posted in "Push Discussion" maybe try the Max 4 Live part of the forum instead.
viewforum.php?f=35

i use one of these http://logidy.com/ with the buttons MIDI mapped to play stop & record to deal with the space bar issue.

good luck!!

[Buleriachk]

I did that too.... but how did you start it (you would need another button for record on/off)
I even looked into Pok, but decided ultimately it wasn't worth the effort - I just developed faster than light hands at the beginning and end of each guitar piece....

i use one of these http://logidy.com/ with the buttons MIDI mapped to play stop & record to deal with the space bar issue.

good luck!!

[H20nly]

ahh... i think i know why you're asking... you're using Live 9 huh?

i had it setup in Live 7 & 8 so i just mapped the transport controls for Play, Stop, & Record (which acted as Record Arm in those versions) to the 3 buttons.

in 9 the record button starts playing the set... i moved my whole setup around twice since installing Live 9 and haven't set the Lodigy up with it since my new setup is more conducive to playing my bass without the pedal. that and i play for a while and then just extract the good bits from the final recording. i have a project i'm working on right now that involves me recording vocals so i'd like the functionality back for that if nothing else. i'll try setting it up with L9 and let you know the results.

one last note: when you turn on MIDI mapping you can see the CC commands that each button on your controller/keyboard/etc uses in the panel that opens up during mapping. entering that CC manually could help.

more soon if someone else doesn't chime in...

[yur2die4]

You even tried the chromatic mode? You can choose a scale, and then choose whether only the scale notes show, or all chromatic notes but with scale notes lit (including special color for root).

[Buleriachk]

One would want to keep everything the same in the InKey configuration Am,Cmajor EXCEPT for the one note that distinguishes them (G#,G) (C major is at the top of the Circle of Fifths)

And to make sense, the change would be instantaneous and temporary - with the left hand push down and release to change the note. (Leaving it there would be the same as changing key using the buttons at the top). In particular, the tonic of the scale would remain in the same place (so if you're in A harmonic minor and change to its relative C major, the A notes would remain lit/emphasized with a different color)

And the relationship would be consistent as one moved around the circle of fifths. In fact, on should be able to do that for all the different modes. (the Aolean mode is actually A natural minor, which has an III (Em) chord; one would want to change it to a III7 (E7) chord without changing anything else)

The distinction between major and minor in the same chord with the same root is called its character. I think.

[sowhoso]

PXT has user modes that let you choose whatever notes you want...make up your own scales

[Buleriachk]

That is not the point. The point is to change instantaneously by changing ONE note between relative major and harmonic minor (NOT natural minor) while keeping the tonic reference C on the pad layout, and highlighting the g -> g# in C or G with a different color (if the key is A harmonic minor, the note would temporarily change to g# -> g so I could play a g or c chord within the A harmonic minor scale configuration).

(So that, for example, I could play the progression Am -> G -> F -> E by temporarily switching the g note in the G chord to the g# note in the E chord - which is the dominant 7th of Am.)

I do NOT want to switch the whole fricken' layout; just one specific note in that key, and only for as long as I hold down the selection key

PXT has user modes that let you choose whatever notes you want...make up your own scales

The next step would be an F# (for melodic minor) or a Bb to be able to modulate to the key on either side of the Circle of Fifths....) Then - who knows - secondary dominants for all keys - then a fullblown chord selector (but one would need a second controller for those....)

And, HEY, I do know about the buttons at the top........

[Buleriachk]

OTH, I might be able to configure a second track that would feed a conventional midi keyboard into an identical configuration in Live and just play on the black keys with my left hand .....

But that would take all the fun out of it.......

Well, I'll know more about whether the accidental with a key (hey, why are they called accidentals?) after the push gets here on Monday, but I don't see this addressed in the manual. I'm hoping that I can order the buttons so that C is on the top row and Am directly beneath on the second row, which will allow me to switch keys, but the root of the scale will change on the pad... (Maybe just an option so the lights wouldn't change would be enough, come to think of it....)

[yur2die4]

Look. I get that you play the good old Andalusian cadence. I get that it uses that dominant E chord when in A minor. And G when stepping down from Am. The truth is, the device has a simple scale concept. A list of notes to highlight is given and it shows them stacking at intervals of thirds or fourths above the previous row. In any other case, you either have to juggle scales, make a hack, or play a chromatic mode. I believe their intention was to keep a very clear and unconflicting logic. And I know that gets difficult with music, but devices can't read minds yet.

I'm having the same issues either when it comes to jazzy dissonance, the Andalusian thing, and even with the blues.

I just find it odd that you'd make a brash assumption that the designers know nothing about guitar when the layout is in chromatic notes layered by fourths. But I know that guitar players have that problem where the each invent their own forms of 'guitar logic' and anyone that doesn't get it can eff off and go play drums.

My best advice for you is to practice a lot on Launchpad95, and get comfortable with the scales, button layout, and especially the In Key on/off buttons to figure out how to make the instrument do what you want.

I wouldn't expect to 'learn' guitar and have the thing trying to make all my chord value decisions for me.

[Buleriachk]

Get a life. Have a sense of humor. It was a joke (albeit serious) But I'm delighted that you finally understand my question.......

It is not just the Andalusian cadence, but a whole lot of music that uses c and g along with the harmonic minor.

What are you saying, that Push can't be improved? ... not just for guitar, but for all musicians performing live that want to use A harmonic minor and C major in one key and, heaven forbid, modulation to other keys in real time using secondary dominants? Naah, I don't buy it. Ableton can, and will do better than this limitations for "Music for Dummies" ..

I will certainly say that Push/Live is a work of genius, and groundbreaking in many ways. I do worry that it will "tune out" the world of music to relative minors, modulation, etc., because it is so easy to play. And, yeah, I wouldn't advise you to try to learn the guitar..... you might hit an accidental.....

Look. I get that you play the good old Andalusian cadence. I get that it uses that dominant E chord when in A minor. And G when stepping down from Am. The truth is, the device has a simple scale concept. A list of notes to highlight is given and it shows them stacking at intervals of thirds or fourths above the previous row. In any other case, you either have to juggle scales, make a hack, or play a chromatic mode. I believe their intention was to keep a very clear and unconflicting logic. And I know that gets difficult with music, but devices can't read minds yet.

I'm having the same issues either when it comes to jazzy dissonance, the Andalusian thing, and even with the blues.

I just find it odd that you'd make a brash assumption that the designers know nothing about guitar when the layout is in chromatic notes layered by fourths. But I know that guitar players have that problem where the each invent their own forms of 'guitar logic' and anyone that doesn't get it can eff off and go play drums.

My best advice for you is to practice a lot on Launchpad95, and get comfortable with the scales, button layout, and especially the In Key on/off buttons to figure out how to make the instrument do what you want.

I wouldn't expect to 'learn' guitar and have the thing trying to make all my chord value decisions for me.

[Buleriachk]

I thought a bit, and it might be really easy to implement accidentals at least for relative major and minor. e.g., if a user mode could be "lock" the key in Am so that only sixth (g) would change with a key change press in the top buttons, then hitting either C or G would allow the use of G temporarily, and return to G# when the key was released)