Audio crackling with new i7 build.

[Donnie]

Just a perspective to take into account. Not interested in a huge dick-waving debate on this, however, so carry on

Agreed completely. Judging by your post I don't see it going that way.

However I will disagree with vendor recommendations in many cases unless the vendor is actually the manufacturer. Even then, it depends if the company is focused on performance or bulk sales. The main factor being is that stability is all reliant on a motherboard manufacturers integration. Especially shared resource configurations which are done for cost efficiency, not performance. In addition, vendor recommendations are often influenced by a price point situation with upgrade options. This is a general statement and not directly related to Reyniers Audio as I have no experience with them.

I will not argue that on some systems integrated graphics will work perfectly fine. That is not the point here. The point is that in situations where integrated graphics have issues it will often be resolved much easier through a hardware replacement, as opposed to software, as the problem is typically influenced by inadequate design. Generally, I am not impressed by these types of solutions and would rather not take the risk relying on them.

Its OK to claim things as anecdotal, at first, but over time that crosses into the realm of empirical knowledge. Theory is great but in manufacturing every part or design is not created equal. When you have you hands on enough stuff, diagnose enough problems, you start to do tests and see patterns. If diagnosing based on a combination of theory and empirical knowledge is seen as insufficient, well, that's a matter of opinion I guess. An opinion that seems to be the bottom line of the 'debate' here.

[Nokatus]

However I will disagree with vendor recommendations in many cases unless the vendor is actually the manufacturer. Even then, it depends if the company is focused on performance or bulk sales. The main factor being is that stability is all reliant on a motherboard manufacturers integration. Especially shared resource configurations which are done for cost efficiency, not performance

Yep. I mentioned vendors who specialize in DAW workstations (and only DAW workstations) because they cater to a very specific, niche customer base. Basically, their reputation is on the line, based on the functionality of their systems for this singular purpose. Bad rep spreads fast in such a relatively small and specialized crowd; people who expect their systems to work as promised and pay a premium for that assurance.

If such a company noticed their systems exhibiting problems because of a component choice, be it the video adapter or any other part of the whole, they would absolutely do something about it and not recommend it further. Once the word spreads that the systems provided by a particular company are problematic and they just keep selling them, it's difficult to gain back that trust. And again, that kind of rep spreads fast, globally. As i7 DAW systems have been sold with such component choices for years now, I can only conclude it hasn't posed an actual problem.

I have not found actual data pertaining to any DAW. They are obviously not 100% 2D, like streaming video, as user interaction does affect the displayed frame. There must be some degree of 3D in terms of the modelling to create the displayed frame but nothing that can't be handled by the IGP.

Sounds like you're confusing 2D GUI acceleration with actual 3D calculations in games and other 3D applications. The performance hit from 2D GUI stuff was insignificant already years and years ago.

i would guess that one case where the shared memory bandwidth might have a measurable impact is when you are doing production that is heavily sample library based.

The thing is, when working in a DAW environment, your computer isn't typically doing any video memory intensive operations comparable to those during gaming, for example. Most of the memory bandwidth considerations are actually written from the perspective of games, where the system has to cope with heavy texture streaming and other taxing operations for rendering a modern 3D game world. If there is a memory bandwidth impact from graphics operations in a 2D DAW application, it's bound to be minuscule.

[Donnie]

Yep. I mentioned vendors who specialize in DAW workstations (and only DAW workstations) because they cater to a very specific, niche customer base. Basically, their reputation is on the line, based on the functionality of their systems for this singular purpose. Bad rep spreads fast in such a relatively small and specialized crowd; people who expect their systems to work as promised and pay a premium for that assurance.

If such a company noticed their systems exhibiting problems because of a component choice, be it the video adapter or any other part of the whole, they would absolutely do something about it and not recommend it further. Once the word spreads that the systems provided by a particular company are problematic and they just keep selling them, it's difficult to gain back that trust. And again, that kind of rep spreads fast, globally. As i7 DAW systems have been sold with such component choices for years now, I can only conclude it hasn't posed an actual problem.

Im with you on everything but the last line. Although integrated graphics have improved over the years, there are still plenty of cases where users experience less than desirable performance using them. There are also vendors who still sell DAW workstations with a card.

[Nokatus]

Im with you on everything but the last line. Although integrated graphics have improved over the years, there are still plenty of cases where users experience less than desirable performance using them. There are also vendors who still sell DAW workstations with a card.

Definitely, if I had to guess, I'd say more of them are sold with a card than integrated graphics. Also, as there's a load of all kinds of compatibility issues lurking around, people are dealing with systems that just aren't playing nice with a given graphics solution. I don't doubt at all that going from integrated graphics to a dedicated card can be a cure.

What I wanted to emphasize was: companies are selling professional grade DAW systems using this graphics solution, and they have been doing it for some time. If i7 integrated graphics was a bottleneck because of the many reasons provided in this thread, the downsides would manifest no matter what.

As it's being used in very solid systems with no discernible performance hit in DAW use (and I've obsessed over the rock solid functionality of my system, believe me , I tested the crap out of it when I got it), I have to draw this conclusion: when a DAW doesn't function like it's supposed to, and the situation is successfully remedied by switching from Intel HD Graphics to a card, it's a more multifaceted issue than merely "Intel HD Graphics isn't up to this application." I've come to notice, when the whole system is carefully considered and the chosen parts are a tried-and-tested combination for DAW use, the integrated solution shouldn't pose a drawback.

Edit: oh btw, when getting the system (i7-3770K), I used it for months on end with the Turbo Boost yanked permanently on, all throttling off and the CPU steady at 3,9 GHz, just to see if it has an effect on stability. No effect whatsoever. Nowadays I'm using it at stock speed, just because it feels more relaxed in a placebo kind of way, heh. It's nice to know I can bump it permanently on turbo if the need arises.

[Sional]

Sounds like you're confusing 2D GUI acceleration with actual 3D calculations in games and other 3D applications. The performance hit from 2D GUI stuff was insignificant already years and years ago.

No, by 2D I meant streaming a series of 2D images as in a video. Obviously a DAWs display does not work this way but has to be built up by pasting predefined images and modelling specific images in response to user interaction. I believe that it is not uncommon to use 3D calculations to model 2D images in situations like this but I am certainly no expert in this field.

You are not getting it, integrated graphics are shit.

I am saying that Intel® HD Graphics 4600 is absolutely bottom of the barrel, therefore expected to perform as such. I am sorry that you cannot grasp that extremely basic concept.

I will not argue that on some systems integrated graphics will work perfectly fine.

Make your mind up Donnie

[Nokatus]

I believe that it is not uncommon to use 3D calculations to model 2D images in situations like this but I am certainly no expert in this field.

Ah, now I understand what you're getting at. Yeah, although using actual 3D graphics in plugin/DAW interfaces is a rare way of going about it. Nowadays 2D GUIs can use, in addition to traditional GUI acceleration schemes, shaders (meaning those snippets of code which are being executed on a GPU, usually in this case not literally for lighting/shading, though ), so yep -- it's just good to note this differs a lot from performing any heavy lifting 3D calculations comparable to gaming or similar.

[Donnie]

Make your mind up Donnie

I already have. I think integrated graphics are generally shit. Which is fine, if it works for you.

[Donnie]

what is it with the engineer bullshit?

Ask Donnie

I also think you are a serious douche for comments like this (just noticed it). You know, considering that you are the one who started on the engineer bullshit, not me. All I said is that I was an engineer in response to your remark. Then you went on and on about it.

Nokatus, on the other hand, does not appear to be a douche. Every post is not entrenched in condescending bullshit.

[anra]

Question for the IGPU experts and all the other experts: What would have been the cure for my setup/system instead of the PCIe card? I think I had tried a lot of combinations for system tweaks. I don't think I missed any new driver. In the past builds I have got the crackle free audio, despite the problems, I've got them sorted in the end. Please let me know what I did miss with this build+HD4600?

[Donnie]

I have to draw this conclusion: when a DAW doesn't function like it's supposed to, and the situation is successfully remedied by switching from Intel HD Graphics to a card, it's a more multifaceted issue than merely "Intel HD Graphics isn't up to this application." I've come to notice, when the whole system is carefully considered and the chosen parts are a tried-and-tested combination for DAW use, the integrated solution shouldn't pose a drawback.

Definitely! Although I personally find integrated graphics to be undesirable (aka shit per previous statements) I am not placing the blame solely on them per say. Its the overall integration which leads to the problems. This is what I am referring too. On a base specification level the device may be more than adequate for the job, its just that these types of lost cost solutions lead to varying output in quality. You are absolutely right though, quality is the defining factor here on whether or not it will work as intended. I still think its a crapshoot though, because even with the proper research and a good manufacturer you could still end up getting a bad rev or something. But hey, thats anything I guess.

[Sional]

Integrated graphics is for surfing the net and watching youtube, not professional use.

I have to draw this conclusion: when a DAW doesn't function like it's supposed to, and the situation is successfully remedied by switching from Intel HD Graphics to a card, it's a more multifaceted issue than merely "Intel HD Graphics isn't up to this application." I've come to notice, when the whole system is carefully considered and the chosen parts are a tried-and-tested combination for DAW use, the integrated solution shouldn't pose a drawback.

Definitely!

Make your mind up Donnie

[Donnie]

[Nokatus]

Nokatus, on the other hand, does not appear to be a douche. Every post is not entrenched in condescending bullshit.

Some of them are?

[eyeknow]

This thread is lolz

Btw, I called it on the video card, I expect credit. You're welcome

[Sional]

Question for the IGPU experts and all the other experts: What would have been the cure for my setup/system instead of the PCIe card? I think I had tried a lot of combinations for system tweaks. I don't think I missed any new driver. In the past builds I have got the crackle free audio, despite the problems, I've got them sorted in the end. Please let me know what I did miss with this build+HD4600?

Unfortunately anra you are the only person in a position to trace your specific problem. This will require time spent messing about with your computer, so you may be happy to live with the expediency of the video card fix.

If you think that you should have been able to use your system without the card and want to investigate further, I can suggest the following approach:

Establish the full extent of your audio problems. It occurs in Live, but what about playing an MP3 file in Windows media player or just playing a CD. Defining the exact extent of the fault may allow you to determine whether the fault is soft or hardware related and may enable you to totally eliminate certain things.

Strip your system down to bare minimum (nothing in PCI slots, only wired kbd and mouse in USB slots, use motherboard audio and minimum software drivers), set BIOS to default settings and disable all unnecessary start-up programs. Try to achieve some minimum system configuration that allows crackle free audio then build up from there until the fault occurs again.

If the above is not possible consider a possible assembly fault. Did that difficult to fit cpu heatsink cause you to impart a slight twist to the motherboard . Are all connectors firmly seated.

You don't have the luxury of a repair shop so can't swap out parts and any other computers you may have are probably not socket 1150, so the best you can do is apply logic. For example, if other non audio applications work perfectly then it is fair to say that the RAM must be OK. Be aware that just because say MS excel works that you can rule out your CPU. Not the case as is a two part device so a poor connection to a single pin may manifest itself only on the GPU side of the IGP.

I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but even experienced people can sometimes overlook something.