question re: routing in Ableton for live vocal effects

[zwolf]

So I'm trying to think through the most logical workflow here for ultimately using Live 9's effects gigging with my band, and admittedly I'm getting kinda confused. What I want to be able to achieve with vocals is to only get the 100% wet processed signal coming out of my Duet and going to FOH, while they just feed the PA with the main vocal signal as usual. I'm thinking we'd use a mic splitter and a small mixer to take care of tapping the vocal signal to feed into the duet > Ableton.

But I can't quite seem to figure out how to route that signal in Ableton so that we'd only hear the 100% signal, and only hear that when a given effect is engaged. I know how to sequence dummy midi clips and do things like engage this vocal FX channel at the right moment, etc., but I still can't wrap my head around the issue of not hearing an input signal when the track is engaged.

Is this making any sense? Does everyone processing vocal effects in a live band setting just feed the entire vocal signal to FOH from their laptops?

thanks for any insight. probably overlooking something obvious...

[Sage]

Simply create another audio channel with the same inputed selected and route it to a different output.

Never used a Duet, so assuming it only has a stereo out, so you might have to pan the different channels hard left & right. If that is the case, maybe you need to ask whether the Duet is the right interface to be using for live gigs.

[clement.m]

You can, for example, use an Audio Effect Rack on your voice track.
You put some effects on the first Chain, so when you wanna use those effects, you use the Chain Selector via automation for example. Also you keep a chain with nothing and mute it, so that when you wanna get only dry voice, nothing comes out of you computer (except the tails of your delays, etc...).

Sorry if I didn't understand your situation...

[zwolf]

Sage and Clement.m -- thanks very much for your replies!

Sage - in this scenario (creating another audio track with the same input selected and routed to a different output) you're still talking about taking all vocals out of ableton - dry and effected, correct? routed to different channels for separate control from FOH, but all vocal signals being sent to FOH passing through ableton first. Let me know if I didn't understand you.

Clement.m - can you say a bit more about your suggestion? I have created a audio effects rack with a number of different effects in it and I understand how to use the chain selector via automated dummy clips as well as how to automate the various parameters of the effects for specific spots in the music. But I'm not sure if I understand what you're suggesting re: an empty muted chain...sounds interesting.

I guess I should state again the sort of global question/confusion I have surrounding all this: For musicians performing live with Ableton and using its effects on vocals, are you plugging the club's vocal mic into your interface>ableton and then feeding the sound guy an output from your interface and saying "this is the main vocal"? Or is FOH getting their vocal signal through their usual chain and you're somehow tapping out of that, feeding your interface/ableton, and sending that out mixed in with your main Ableton output? If the latter, then again I want to figure out how to only send wet effected signal through, not a vocal input signal to go along with the main signal FOH is working with. The problem I'm having with the experiments I've been running on this is that when I automate a delay to turn on -- say for a single word - I hear the delay, but also a boost from the vocal input and I don't want that.

Feeling very inarticulate and it's driving me crazy.

[H20nly]

forgive me if i'm over simplifying your plight... not intending to... but why not just turn down the volume on the send with the delay on it to compensate for the boost?

it sounds like the reason you have a volume boost is because you are suddenly doubling the track.

[zwolf]

No, no, no oversimplification on your part. I just don't think I'm capable of making my question clear for some odd reason. I don't know why I'm struggling with this concept!

How about this: can someone describe to me the exact routing of the signal chain from mic to FOH speakers as well as the track setup within ableton for processing a live vocal signal with an effect? Maybe a basic explanation will clear me up?

[outsidesys]

Mic -> FOH Mix Console In -> FOH Post Fader Aux Send -> Duet In L (Mono) -> Live Audio Track w/FX -> Live Master -> Duet Out (Stereo) -> FOH Mix Console Stereo Return or Stereo Channel

Set Live's Audio Track to Monitor IN, and mute it when you don't want to output any FX signal back to the FOH Mix Console.

Or for more control:

Mic -> Duet In L (Mono) -> Live Audio Track w/o FX -> Send to FX on Return Track -> Audio Track & Return Track to Master -> Duet Out (Stereo) -> FOH Mix Console

[clement.m]

I think I've got nothing to add to that!
Those two solutions would depend on the venue or discussion with the sound technician.

My suggestion was the same as the first one of outsidesys, as if the signal was splitted somehow. He proposed to mute your track when not using effects, and I proposed to select a chain that would always be mute, so it seems like the same idea.
I just talked about a Rack of effects so that you could call some different rigs for a song or another.

[zwolf]

Thanks a lot outsidesys and clement.m - this is indeed helping to clarify my ideas on this.

Not sure which approach is the best, so I'll have to experiment with each. Seems each has its benefits/drawback. Method A (tapping a signal from FOH) has the benefit of zero latency on the main vocal signal, probably would make the sound guy feel happier, and is also safer in event of computer malfunction. Drawback being that I don't think all clubs are set up to feed their aux sends back to the stage for musicians to fuck around with, so it's not a workflow I could always count on using.

Method B (main vocal going through the computer before FOH) has the advantage of a simpler set up, but then I'll have to run my buffer lower to reduce latency and possibly increasing the chance of a crash or audio dropout?

Again, all comments appreciated. Feel free to jump in with opinions on methodology preference...

[Winterpark]

It is sensible to have separate dry/wet mixes going to the FOH, but I would not get the FOH engineer to be responsible for getting a send off the desk to you.

I would use a DI box (with XLR in) to split the signal pre-computer, and send the dry signal to the FOH engineer via the DI's xlr out.

I would then send the 1/4" output of the DI to the input of your duet soundcard.

Ensure that any onboard monitoring capabilities that the Duet has are disabled, so that the output of the soundcard is 100% wet signal from the effects you have set up in Live.

Then output the Duet to the FOH.

The FOH engineer is then in charge of setting the appropriate gain on the desk, and can then send you both dry and wet mixes to the foldback for you to hear yourself on stage.

[Sage]

Sage and Clement.m -- thanks very much for your replies!

Sage - in this scenario (creating another audio track with the same input selected and routed to a different output) you're still talking about taking all vocals out of ableton - dry and effected, correct? routed to different channels for separate control from FOH, but all vocal signals being sent to FOH passing through ableton first. Let me know if I didn't understand you.

That is basically it. Simplest solution, which is the best place to start when organising how to play/set up live.
However if latency is an issue with the dry vocal, which is something you should have worked out long before you go anywhere near a venue, then try a method others have suggested.

[Mehalic]

I would just route the audio track to "sends only" on the audio channels output setting. That sends the signal to just the sends, which send to the output - wet signal only. Would that work?

[zwolf]

So I got an ART mic splitter and have been experimenting with this setup:

Vocal mic > splitter > mixing board (dry vocal); other side of splitter > apogee duet input > ableton fx > duet out > mixing board (wet vocal)

So I have my fx chain in Ableton set to mute when there's nothing going on fx-wise, and then activate the effect for the spots that I want it. This works well, but I'm having some issues getting a good sound. When I do have fx going, I'm hearing a phasey sound between the dry and effected channels coming out of the board. I'm also having trouble getting the gain structure right. I can't seem to get a good level for the wet vocals without having to crank the gain and therefore introduce feeback, even though I appear to have a good level coming out of the return channel on ableton and have the sends cranked on the input channel. And it's not an issue with not getting a good signal from the duet's input - that appears to be fine.

Any thoughts?

[zwolf]

anyone?