What does a stone sound like?

[re:dream]

I guess I was wrong. For myrnova, a Ghanaian drumming ensemble is not music.















.

[myrnova]

If I understand myr aright, these relationships are the music. The actual sounds are not.

It is not that difficult: the "actual sounds" are the consequence of music (at least in Europe), not its cause. Music can be played without sound (e.g. you can think it). The same for rhythm and language.

[re:dream]

at least in Europe.

[myrnova]

at least in Europe.

The difference between Europeans and U.S. users here I already explained above. So, again: this is the main difference I can notice between americans here and europeans: americans consider music "the resulting sound" (in italian: "arrangiamento". It's how you "dress" a piece of music). In Europe, on the contrary, music is more "the melodic/harmonic concept", BEFORE the sound (because music is NOT the sound or "music played": this is the american "music is sound" concept, as far as I can see, right?).

That is why, for instance, I don't consider a "cover" song "a different piece of music" only because it is played in different style, or with different instruments, with rhytmic elements added, in a different pitch etc. It remains "that" piece of music (because of its structure, which is before the sound) In America you call different song covers (of the same original song) "different music" just because they sound different, played with different instruments etc.?

[stringtapper]

So where are the geographical borders between these two opinions on music?

Can you give us a precise longitude at which the change happens?

Somewhere along the east coast of Iceland perhaps?

[re:dream]

Sorry, I needed to get my breath there.

But I am much relieved.

Myr's theories only apply to European music..


I am still a little worried, myr, that you also said you were talking about *real* music. The notion that only European music is real is a little controversial these days.



But for my part, I will not go there now.

I will just note that this means that the rest of us, who are not white Europeans, can go on with our music, unreal as it is, free to engage with it as a rich, sensual, bodily experience of sound and silence in living time.

That's good enough for me.

[crofter]

at least in Europe.

The difference between Europeans and U.S. users here I already explained above. So, again: this is the main difference I can notice between americans here and europeans: americans consider music "the resulting sound" (in italian: "arrangiamento". It's how you "dress" a piece of music). In Europe, on the contrary, music is more "the melodic/harmonic concept", BEFORE the sound (because music is NOT the sound or "music played": this is the american "music is sound" concept, as far as I can see, right?).

That is why, for instance, I don't consider a "cover" song "a different piece of music" only because it is played in different style, or with different instruments, with rhytmic elements added, in a different pitch etc. It remains "that" piece of music (because of its structure, which is before the sound) In America you call different song covers (of the same original song) "different music" just because they sound different, played with different instruments etc.?

So you speak for the whole of Europe, I think not, it's all in your tiny mind.

[myrnova]

So where are the geographical borders between these two opinions on music?

Can you give us a precise longitude at which the change happens?

Somewhere along the east coast of Iceland perhaps?

I guess in your mind, since you (and your american mates here) claim "music is sound" I just read what you claim.

[Hanil Yoo]

If I sample my fart (sound) and play Beethoven's 5th symphony with it will my fart become music?

[re:dream]

Europe brings *real* music to Africa

[myrnova]

If I sample my fart (sound) and play Beethoven's 5th symphony with it will my fart become music?

yes (already done by many) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpQQpIOCp_A

[H20nly]

so let me get this straight:

+ percussion instruments don't make music (unless they're part of a European MIDI sequence)
+ farting rhythms out your brown star is music as long it closely resembles the work of a classical composer
+ myrnova is still an extreme super racist
+ all Americans are white anglos
+ per myrnova, don't by "negro music"
+ music ceases to exist when you enter American air space
+ the lunar landing was hoax

what have i missed?

[sporkles]

Didn't we come to a definite conclusion on this topic last time?

I mean... Surely?

[myrnova]

Didn't we come to a definite conclusion on this topic last time?

I mean... Surely?

"WE"

[stringtapper]

Of course not. Case in point:

You could start reading about prebirth music esperience (amniotic liquid: vibrations, noises, mother's heartbeat rhythm, breath etc.) in particular Spence and De Casper studies. Read Hepper studies on mother singing and different effects in 2 weeks old children. Regarding the brain areas, read about the so-called "blob cells" in the acoustic cortex (Weeks) and the results in the field of "neuroimage" (eeg, pet etc.). Studies about blind people are important, because they develop a strong spacial "image" of sound. This is a consequence of neural "plasticity". There are studies (see for instance Elbert) regarding the brain modifications in professional musicians (in particular the relationship between brain stimulation and left hand). Another interesting field of research: "absolut pitch" (a brain faculty, very rare) and the way to learn it. You could read Peretz, Colthear, Stewart for the research on brain areas and "musical" psychodeseases ("in italian: "amusia": people who cannot percieve "music" because they have no perception of "unity"), and "amusia" due to brain damage For the rhythm look at the studies of Griffiths (temporal area: heschl; right frontal cortex). Regarding tonal music and brain activation: Warrier (temporal area: memory). Regarding the relationsheep between music and language: Hauser (language units are symbols, musical units are math ratios: these elements are the "key" for pleasure when listening to music).

Good, thanks for the tips. Now have you read anything I suggested for you?

He never considered, or has ever considered, anything that anyone else says. He ignores reasoned arguments and ignores any evidence presented to him.

However as you can see I was very open to reading the studies he presented and commented on them later in the thread.