Annoying automation recording in arangement view

[Dragonbreath]

I just recording a few things for fun the other day and came a across a bizzare and annoying behavior of the automation recording in arrangement view.

Essentially I had recorded a loop with an operator instrument, was playing it back while my friend was jamming on midi controller to find another part to go on top. While he was jamming I was tweaking the operator settings. We are recoring the loop playing back from session and him jamming out into the arangement. Automation record is turned off. track arm is off on the loop track. Yet everytime I end up with automation in looping track. Have to delete the automation and loose my setting for the sound I was tweaking. Yet it didnt record any automation in the track jamming track since the track is armed. What kind of wierd behavior is this. Ableton should not record automation unless I tell it too. Its really annoying for my work methods.

I know I could record into session and proably avoid this but this is just plain stupid. Whats the point of the automation arm then!

[shipwreck]

On your Operator loop in Session View, do you have automation recorded into the clip? Any automation that you've added to the clip in Session View will be recorded into Arrangement View no matter the state of the Automation Arm or track specific Record Arm buttons.

I'm not completely sure I'm understanding your situation given the information provided, if that doesn't help let me know and I can help you further assess the problem.

Cheers.

[TomViolenz]

I actually have another thing that annoys me about automation recording in general and that is that it only records the parameters I changed while recording. All the parameters I didn't change while recording should at least get a start and an end break point, so that if I play with those parameters afterwards this recorded piece will still sound as it did when I recorded it. The way it is, the recording doesn't actually mean permanently recorded, because changing other parameters than automated ones leaves no record of the change. I assume there is no workaround I overlooked? (No printing to audio is not what I mean)

[pencilrocket]

some daw have latch/touch/read mode for it.

[TomViolenz]

some daw have latch/touch/read mode for it.

Yeah, but this is not so important to me that I would change DAW's for.
I guess something like clyphx' "snap shots" could somehow be used, but I don't think they work in arrangement.

[Dragonbreath]

On your Operator loop in Session View, do you have automation recorded into the clip? Any automation that you've added to the clip in Session View will be recorded into Arrangement View no matter the state of the Automation Arm or track specific Record Arm buttons.

I'm not completely sure I'm understanding your situation given the information provided, if that doesn't help let me know and I can help you further assess the problem.

Cheers.

No. No automation at all. At this point I dont want ANY automation, yet it gets recorded anyways. There is a loop playing and my friend is recording some synth in real time over it. Record arm is activated on the synth track its not activated on the loop track. Global record is activated but automation arm isnt. If I tweak parameters on the synth track while its bieng recorded, no automation is recorded, if tweak paramaters on the loop track automation is recorded.

I actually have another thing that annoys me about automation recording in general and that is that it only records the parameters I changed while recording. All the parameters I didn't change while recording should at least get a start and an end break point, so that if I play with those parameters afterwards this recorded piece will still sound as it did when I recorded it. The way it is, the recording doesn't actually mean permanently recorded, because changing other parameters than automated ones leaves no record of the change. I assume there is no workaround I overlooked? (No printing to audio is not what I mean)

I had yet to encounter that but yes that would very much be a problem for me too!

[shipwreck]

No. No automation at all. At this point I dont want ANY automation, yet it gets recorded anyways. There is a loop playing and my friend is recording some synth in real time over it. Record arm is activated on the synth track its not activated on the loop track. Global record is activated but automation arm isnt. If I tweak parameters on the synth track while its bieng recorded, no automation is recorded, if tweak paramaters on the loop track automation is recorded.

Alright so I re-created your setup and attempted to record automation and this is what I came up with. Are you approaching this as I did in the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq2txw2nZh4

If I'm understanding you correctly you want to record the Operator loop straight into arrangement as it is in session, and you additionally want to record a live playing of a separate track into arrangement with parameter changes recorded as automation? That's completely possible, but I'm having trouble seeing why it isn't happening for you. Check that video and see if we're approaching things the same way.

[shipwreck]

I actually have another thing that annoys me about automation recording in general and that is that it only records the parameters I changed while recording. All the parameters I didn't change while recording should at least get a start and an end break point, so that if I play with those parameters afterwards this recorded piece will still sound as it did when I recorded it. The way it is, the recording doesn't actually mean permanently recorded, because changing other parameters than automated ones leaves no record of the change. I assume there is no workaround I overlooked? (No printing to audio is not what I mean)

I have two suggested workarounds for you.

1. Set your instrument as you want it and record the clip with it's desired automation. If you then want another clip with different settings on the same instrument, simply automate those parameters at their new setting in the new clip (either record or draw it in). Live will only change the settings as you automated them in the new clip and the original clip will still play back with it's original parameter values.

2. If you wanted multiple different versions of the same instrument available on one track, accessible by automation in the clips you could do the following. Create an instrument rack and create a new chain for every version of the instrument (let's say synth for now) that you wanted. Create a different variation of the preset on the synth in each chain. Then open the chain select editor and map the chain selector to a macro knob on the instrument rack. Make sure you've setup the chain select editor so it only selects one chain at a time. Now you can switch through different variations of the synth simply by turning the macro knob; or in your case you could automate the macro knob on each clip, allowing you to select a different synth variation with each clip.

Hope that helps, cheers!

[Dragonbreath]

Alright so I re-created your setup and attempted to record automation and this is what I came up with. Are you approaching this as I did in the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq2txw2nZh4

If I'm understanding you correctly you want to record the Operator loop straight into arrangement as it is in session, and you additionally want to record a live playing of a separate track into arrangement with parameter changes recorded as automation? That's completely possible, but I'm having trouble seeing why it isn't happening for you. Check that video and see if we're approaching things the same way.

Thank you very much for your time in trying to help but you still havent quite grasped the problem. The problem is not that the automation is not getting recorded, but that it IS bieng recorded but I Dont want ANY automation recorded, AT ALL. (at least at this part of the process).

Essentially I encountered the problem because I had a friend in the studio with me and was trying to multitask. He was jamming around on my midi controller playing softsynth and the resulting performance is bieng recorded into arangement. To get a tempo for him to jam too I programmed a midi clip doing straight 4 on the floor kick drum. The kick sound is bieng generated by an operator preset I had been messing around with. So I tried to tweak the parameters of operator to improve the sound of the kick AS HE WAS PLAYING. This I could multitaks, work on the sound while hes recording. The problem is after everything was done my intent was to keep the sound of the kick after everything was done. Instead everything I tweeked was automated, were talking maybe 10 parameters or so. If I delete the automation I loose all my work. I had to note the state of each parameter at the end of the recorded automation, delete the automation for each parameter and re-input it manually.

This kinda confused me as automation Arm was off the whole time. I did some test and can reproduce it no problem. The operator kick track was looping from session view and was not record enabled. Obviously the soft synth track was recorded enable. As a test I tried to record automation in the soft synth track under the same conditions and as excepted no automation was recored (since automation arm was disabled).

This alot of words for something that should be really simple. I just dont understand the logic behind this behavior not sure if its a glitch or expected behavior.Had the frustation in Live 8 that automation was ALWAYS recorded in arangement if global record was activated. I though this had been completly fixed in Live 9 with the automation arm button. Seemed farely simple. Not anymore!

Hope this makes it clearer

[TomViolenz]

I actually have another thing that annoys me about automation recording in general and that is that it only records the parameters I changed while recording. All the parameters I didn't change while recording should at least get a start and an end break point, so that if I play with those parameters afterwards this recorded piece will still sound as it did when I recorded it. The way it is, the recording doesn't actually mean permanently recorded, because changing other parameters than automated ones leaves no record of the change. I assume there is no workaround I overlooked? (No printing to audio is not what I mean)

I have two suggested workarounds for you.

1. Set your instrument as you want it and record the clip with it's desired automation. If you then want another clip with different settings on the same instrument, simply automate those parameters at their new setting in the new clip (either record or draw it in). Live will only change the settings as you automated them in the new clip and the original clip will still play back with it's original parameter values.

2. If you wanted multiple different versions of the same instrument available on one track, accessible by automation in the clips you could do the following. Create an instrument rack and create a new chain for every version of the instrument (let's say synth for now) that you wanted. Create a different variation of the preset on the synth in each chain. Then open the chain select editor and map the chain selector to a macro knob on the instrument rack. Make sure you've setup the chain select editor so it only selects one chain at a time. Now you can switch through different variations of the synth simply by turning the macro knob; or in your case you could automate the macro knob on each clip, allowing you to select a different synth variation with each clip.

Hope that helps, cheers!

Thanks for trying to help

I was aware I could do this though, and find those solutions totally inadequate. The problem with 1: I want to feel free to play around in the instrument and not remember every dial I moved (which I would have to do in order to enter the new automation).
and 2: entering a new chain for any change I might make is just as unfree as solution 1: with the added downside of more CPU use.
The obvious thing is to add the break points for each parameter in the instrument manually, but there are a LOT of parameters in most instruments. I was thinking maybe adding clyphx snap clips, but I don't know if you can record them into Arrangement and even if, then I would need an extra track for my snap clips for all the instruments I use. That's very cumbersome and also limits my freedom.
And all this just because Live doesn't actually record in Arrangement the state of each parameter. I have no idea why Ableton would do it like this. An oversight?!

[ian_halsall]

for any parameters that you are going to change but you like the values in a previous section just select a clip in the earlier section and drag the automation line up a tiny bit - this is now your savepoint.

Move along to the area you want to automate and record/draw away - you can use the clip automation you drew in the earlier clip to get back to where you left off.

This probably doesn't work in session view.

[TomViolenz]

for any parameters that you are going to change but you like the values in a previous section just select a clip in the earlier section and drag the automation line up a tiny bit - this is now your savepoint.

Move along to the area you want to automate and record/draw away - you can use the clip automation you drew in the earlier clip to get back to where you left off.

This probably doesn't work in session view.

Yes, that's what I'm doing right now.
I just feel like it hinders my freedom in just playing around with things, because I have to remember everytime: "Oh yeah, that wasn't automated before, I'll better go into the Arrangement clip and set a new break point..." Inconvenient!

[ian_halsall]

for any parameters that you are going to change but you like the values in a previous section just select a clip in the earlier section and drag the automation line up a tiny bit - this is now your savepoint.

Move along to the area you want to automate and record/draw away - you can use the clip automation you drew in the earlier clip to get back to where you left off.

This probably doesn't work in session view.

Yes, that's what I'm doing right now.
I just feel like it hinders my freedom in just playing around with things, because I have to remember everytime: "Oh yeah, that wasn't automated before, I'll better go into the Arrangement clip and set a new break point..." Inconvenient!

Yep - not ideal - I also hate that there is no editor where I just type in a set of co-ordinates for automation.

A simple list editor:
time value
bar 1 50

But automation IS very stable and it works - so I forgive Ableton - last time I used Cubase automation it worked about 75% of the time!

[TomViolenz]

for any parameters that you are going to change but you like the values in a previous section just select a clip in the earlier section and drag the automation line up a tiny bit - this is now your savepoint.

Move along to the area you want to automate and record/draw away - you can use the clip automation you drew in the earlier clip to get back to where you left off.

This probably doesn't work in session view.

Yes, that's what I'm doing right now.
I just feel like it hinders my freedom in just playing around with things, because I have to remember everytime: "Oh yeah, that wasn't automated before, I'll better go into the Arrangement clip and set a new break point..." Inconvenient!

Yep - not ideal - I also hate that there is no editor where I just type in a set of co-ordinates for automation.

A simple list editor:
time value
bar 1 50

But automation IS very stable and it works - so I forgive Ableton - last time I used Cubase automation it worked about 75% of the time!

seriously?!
How can people live with this?!

[ian_halsall]

that was in like 2008 though to be fair!