That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Geek Model · Post by **Geek Model** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:24 am

I'm official user of Live about 4 years. Since that time i gave o Ableton more than 600$ for software. For the lost month Live show me 5 or 7 times what is real PDC! With this thing i can't bring my ideas to life!

Like other official user of Live i wanna to know will you fix this problem in your 9.1 update? Let's someone responsible inform us.

p.s.: don't get me wrong i'm very-very in love with Live software. I just wanna know for what i will be pay next time.

jlgrimes · Post by **jlgrimes** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:42 pm

Geek Model wrote:I'm official user of Live about 4 years. Since that time i gave o Ableton more than 600$ for software. For the lost month Live show me 5 or 7 times what is real PDC! With this thing i can't bring my ideas to life!

Like other official user of Live i wanna to know will you fix this problem in your 9.1 update? Let's someone responsible inform us.

p.s.: don't get me wrong i'm very-very in love with Live software. I just wanna know for what i will be pay next time.

Cosign.

I actually have started using Live more regularly since version 9. I was mainly using Live as a tool to compose music and much less mix large projects with lots of plug-ins. Delay compensation wasn't a problem for me when I was just using Live to compose.

I attempted to Mix a complete vocal song in Ableton last weekend and ran into the delay compensation issues.

I had it more with the buses and the creation of groups. I had a vocal track with a considerable amount of VSTs on them which sounded fine. I then attempted to add a delay on a Return track but it never sounded fully in sync no matter what I tried.

In the end I had to settle with Copying and pasting the delays to an empty audio track and messing with clip gains to get the delay right.

This would be nice if the delay compensation worked as expected.

It sounds like I will need to continue to do my beats in Ableton then freeze/bounce/export tracks into Studio One or Reaper and Mix there (both programs have full Plugin Delay Compensation. They also seem to have more elegant Automation features.). I am trying to get down to one DAW but this proves elusive.

Both Ableton and Reason are lacking in the PDC department each in different ways.

Reason lacks PDC completely but since most Reason devices have no latency it isn't a big issue. The problem is that most of Reason's devices use no oversampling which don't sound as clean as other DAWs (but sometimes can sound totally right in some situations). This is a huge problem in Reason now since they have Rack Extensions and many developers are using lookahead processing in their code which is giving people some wild rides.

Ableton actually has PDC but with certain limitations. The limitations from what I remember is Automation not having delay compensation at all, and temposynced effects needing to be carefully placed before any latency introducing plugin.

That said I will need to remember to see if using Pre fader sends works better than Post fader sends.

It is time for the Abes to get on this one though. I think Sonar was the first DAW to implement this when it went from Cakewalk Pro Audio to Sonar in maybe 2000 or 2001. So the technology has been here for a while.

That said I'm sure adding the Full PDC option will affect Live's fairly gapless Audio engine.

Sonar (especially at earlier versions) was notorious for having Gaps in audio when doing many things such as copying/pasting audio clips in realtime and even adding/moving midi notes in realtime.

I think though that now though that many more modern DAWs have made improvements here. Reaper and Studio One both have pretty solid engines albeit probably not as able to withstand a beating as Live's engine but nontheless they do have full PDC. I have seen some crashes on Studio One though so all is not well there.

Geek Model · Post by **Geek Model** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:48 pm

I know that i can buy another DAW for mixdown but i don't wanna do it! I've tried FL Studio, Cubase, Logic Studio, Reaper and i can't work in all of this DAWs.. Just wanna use Live in a full potential.

Geek Model · Post by **Geek Model** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:20 pm

Guys from Bitwig told me next: "Yes, the plugin delay compensation does not only take care of your audio tracks being sync if you use plugins that create latency, but also takes the automation into account. Everything else would not make too much sense, as the timing of the automation would always be off by the amount of latency of the plugins. And this amount would even change while working on a project and inserting and removing different plugins."

So Ableton.. If you still need my money why you can't answer for simple question?

agent314 · Post by **agent314** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:32 pm

Because you're carrying on in the forum like a whiny, entitled child and it's undermining your otherwise legitimate complaint?

agent314 · Post by **agent314** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:35 pm

That was out of line. I apologize for the name calling. But I stand by the general point that complaining in the forum is not going to bring about the change that you're calling for.

anstahc · Post by **anstahc** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:35 pm

It's a bizarre company. Session View and Max for Live are a dream yet they just implemented automation curves in 2013 when Cool Edit Pro allowed perfect S-curves back in 1998.

Geek Model · Post by **Geek Model** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:46 pm

Exactly. That's what i mean! You pay money for software and you don't know what expect from developers. I want to upgrade to Suite version of Live 9 but only one thing that's stopping me it's PDC. I'm sitting and thinking not to do it and buy other sequencer but i love so much workflow of Live. Only in this DAW i can work so qui?k! But if the problem is not resolved in the near future i'll buy another DAW instead of Suite upgrade. I understand that for a large company $ 300 is nothing but reputation they can't buy even for millions.

kayhel · Post by **kayhel** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:47 pm

Geek Model wrote:Exactly. That's what i mean! You pay money for software and you don't know what expect from developers. I want to upgrade to Suite version of Live 9 but only one thing that's stopping me it's PDC. I'm sitting and thinking not to do it and buy other sequencer but i love so much workflow of Live. Only in this DAW i can work so qui?k! But if the problem is not resolved in the near future i'll buy another DAW instead of Suite upgrade. I understand that for a large company $ 300 is nothing but reputation they can't buy even for millions.

well said - exactly the same for me.
actually on live 8 suite, onhold with upgrade until live pdc is fixed or bitwig may be out. So uncool not fixing PDC since its a known issue since FOUR years.
a shame for a DAW

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:22 pm

Then don't buy it...
If you already did...then don't update it until you're sure that all your wishes have come true next time

people seem to forget...that what they're purchasing is a license to use the software... Not the software itself and not shares in the company

there is a wish list section in this forum...vote there...this has already been done to death IMO

kayhel · Post by **kayhel** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:44 pm

3dot... wrote:
there is a wish list section in this forum...vote there...this has already been done to death IMO

yes, well said, done to death, and now it seems, that all the developers are dead, murdered by the wishlist

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:45 pm

well... some of them got implemented eventually..
can't please everyone at once...

kayhel · Post by **kayhel** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:29 pm

3dot... wrote:well... some of them got implemented eventually..
can't please everyone at once...

Still... for me its a bug not a feature. Bugfixing of the very few bugs in live should be #1 prio - especially if its timing related - followed by the millions of feature requests. And we are talking about a problem that is known for many many years now!

kayhel · Post by **kayhel** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:40 pm

3dot... wrote:Then don't buy it...
If you already did...then don't update it until you're sure that all your wishes have come true next time

people seem to forget...that what they're purchasing is a license to use the software... Not the software itself and not shares in the company

there is a wish list section in this forum...vote there...this has already been done to death IMO

1. Yes i am not updating until my (single) wish will be implemented. Still on 8 suite
2. Yes i am writing to the wishlist. Again and again. Many others do have the same problem. Ableton is ignoring all of us.
3. Yes, and thatswhy i continue to write about the problem again and again. Hope dies last.
4. Not interested in shares. Why should i?

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:03 pm

A bug is something that is already implemented but does not work as expected.

This is an unimplemented feature that you wish for.

for stability and timing/latency reasons.. I don't believe this will be implemented in the near future.
so you may have to wait for this for another couple of years or more...

That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.

Re: That enough, dear Ableton Team. I wanna know.