Serious topic - ask the expert: Marxism

[Galt]

This is your to learn!

^ this

[H20nly]

when i become a master marxism will i be able to apply the skill to darts and bows & arrows or is marxism (in this context) just about shooting with guns?

No

no, as in being a marxism is not just about shooting with guns?

so i can use marxism to win at darts?

i need clarification... dammit! marxism shouldn't be limited to soldiers and police.

[stringtapper]

Back on topic:

Funken, you say that socialism has never existed. How does it feel to know you will not live to see it exist?

How do you know I won't live to see it?

Well if one goes by your own assessment of the enormity of the capitalist problem and compare that to what you've made public about your own health and sedentary lifestyle then it seems like a reasonable conclusion to say that you're not going to live to see the problem solved.

We could probably just leave out your lifestyle altogether and say that the enormity of the problem (according to you) is enough and that none of us will live to see the problem solved.

So how does it make you feel to know that all the studying you've done on the subject will be lost to the ether when you're gone and that in all likelihood it made no difference?

I would think it would be terribly depressing and might even lead one to, for example, sit around in front of a computer posting on internet forums all day.

[Galt]

so i can use marxism to win at darts?

See here: http://dartthrowingchimp.wordpress.com/tag/marxism/

[stringtapper]

But you're getting back to all the historical details.

I'm asking you how this grim reality makes you feel.

[H20nly]

yeah funken...he's looking for a feelings word...

like this...


when my marxism is completely off and i repeatedly miss the bulls eye it makes me feel sad.

when my marxism is completely off and i repeatedly miss the bulls eye it makes me feel embarrassed.

when my marxism is completely off and i repeatedly miss the bulls eye it makes me feel angry.

[docprosper]

"Too bad"...

DUDE! This is getting really annoying! You guys should decide if you want to have discussions with people from all over the world (who went through the trouble to learn your language) or want to make this a pure American/English forum just as myrnova complained!
(On the board of a German company no less )
You have no idea how jingoist this makes you look...

Chillax bro, twas a joke, hence the " "

[re:dream]

You are talking sheer unadulterated nonsense. etc etc etc

*sigh*

This is why I tend to stay out of the politics discussions

I am perfectly happy to concede that I don't know everything and I am very happy to learn from others

But I fail to see how one can have a useful discussion when any disagreement provokes invective and abuse

Others may enjoy coming back with invective in return, sarcasm, etc.

I just get bored. I think I will go tweak some knobs & stick to the Music production thread.

Enjoy the discussion, folks.

Your post on the Trotsky thread:

He was a brilliant writer (his history of the russian revolution is a riveting read )and man of great integrity.

He was also a creature of his time: when it was easy to imagine that society could be rationally transformed if you could just get the theory and strategy right.

It was a kind of politics that was hugely authoritarian; in the end there was very little difference between Trotsky's thought and Lenin's; both of them had very simplistic notions about the role of a vanguard party who could decide for all of society what was right.

After his murder by Stalin he became the patron saint of lost causes.

My impression over the years that attracted a particularly arrogant and lost kind of revolution-nerd. People who despised everyone else's politics, but who had no idea of how politics really worked, no shred of humility, and very little commitment to democratic process.

Worst of all, they have kept Marxist thought stuck in the 19th century. With their commitment to 'Marxism-Leninism' (Moxam-Lennam, as I call it for short) they have tended to resist critical thinking on the theoretical left and have thus pretty much insured that they are irrelevant

There is still a lot of relevance today in Marxist thought. But not in the Trotskyist / Leninist version of it...

As a Trotskyist I regard that pile of uninformed nonsense as a personal attack, but of course you never insult anyone do you?

OK, I get it. My bad. Funk, I did not know you were a Trotskyist, and I did not have you in mind when I wrote that post. (I tend to stay out of the politics threads on this forum). I don't know whether you do or don't conform to that stereotype. The folks that I have in mind would certainly never be into anything as bourgeois and irrelevant as electronic music.

So I apologise for any hurt caused. And yes, understanding that you felt personally attacked by me helps me understand your over the top response to my rather moderate and tentative remarks in this thread.

[Machinesworking]

Not much that I would disagree with in here!
The "Real existierender Sozialismus" thing was not my framing, just the one used by many here. So I don't think we were cheated out of real Socialism.
The problem with Socialism in my mind is (and don't believe I wouldn't like this to be different!), that it is an idea, that is not really based on scientificly observable facts about human nature. There were quite a lot of things people in east Germany liked about Socialism (even if it was not the real one, I actually think that a lot of the leadership believed in what they preached!). But what never worked was to get the people motivated to work for the common good! I was just old enough to witness work ethics in the state owned industies (all of them).
It was appalling!!! People were fucking taking two hour naps on their work benches after getting a nice buzz on from breakfast beers...
If it was not for personal gain, people just said: fuck it! And, as sad as it might be, this is why Socialism in its pure form will always fail!

I don't think East Germany was anywhere near a good example of socialism. From the start you had a Stalinist led Soviet Union taking over a country that killed 24 million of it's people; an occupation with malice. East Germany never had the feeling of independence and unity it would take to make a socialism work to begin with. I think in the end it takes a feeling that you're part of something greater than yourself and greater than a normal political system to make a socialism work. Being a wall of defense against the west with essentially a puppet government wouldn't give you that feeling.

For capitalism to work people have to believe that everyone is essentially out for themselves. Basically capitalism works because people believe negatively about each other. It's kind of sad that it's the best we've been able to do so far.

[re:dream]

Hence the distinction between 'actually existing' and 'true' socialism.

While DDR socialism was far from 'true' it embodied a real (if really misguided and flawed) attempt to put socialism into practice.

And you want to think about whether (and how) socialist traditions could still be relevant today, it is important to take such real-world examples seriously: learn from experience, and try to figure out what they did right and what they did wrong. Rather than dismiss it as irrelevant because it did not conform to some ideal type of socialism that exists only in theory. Those who refuse to learn from history etc etc.

[Machinesworking]

Hence the distinction between 'actually existing' and 'true' socialism.

While DDR socialism was far from 'true' it embodied a real (if really misguided and flawed) attempt to put socialism into practice.

And you want to think about whether (and how) socialist traditions could still be relevant today, it is important to take such real-world examples seriously: learn from experience, and try to figure out what they did right and what they did wrong. Rather than dismiss it as irrelevant because it did not conform to some ideal type of socialism that exists only in theory. Those who refuse to learn from history etc etc.

Agreed, places were socialism has to an extent worked in my opinion would be Cuba and Yugoslavia. Though in both cases outside pressure has or had upped the militant aspects of the government, and the economies of the countries suffered. Places that lean socialist tend to do pretty good actually, Norway, Sweden, etc. The place where we may actually see real socialism though is the countries of South America, if the USA stays out of the way, and they don't get tangled into allegiances with shit "socialisms" like China. I think that's why the US government feared socialism there so much, because in many ways all the elements are there to make is viable and pretty close to the "workers paradise" etc.

[re:dream]

Yes, Cuba is an interesting example of both the good and the bad.. Real examples of social solidarity in service of some notion of the common good. And a fairly authoritarian government with a crap track record of respect for human rights.

The place where we may actually see real socialism though is the countries of South America.

I have my doubts about Venezuela though.

[Machinesworking]

Yes, Cuba is an interesting example of both the good and the bad.. Real examples of social solidarity in service of some notion of the common good. And a fairly authoritarian government with a crap track record of respect for human rights.

The place where we may actually see real socialism though is the countries of South America.

I have my doubts about Venezuela though.

The question would be why? Chavez is dead, and although he obviously relished the limelight I don't think he was a bad person.
Plus there is the whole tide of other countries going more socialist that will help them out to a degree I believe. Bolivia is pretty cool that way I think, and I find it ironic that we along with the former dictatorship there assassinated Che to prevent it, and 40 odd years later...

[re:dream]

Good points!

[TomViolenz]

"Too bad"...

DUDE! This is getting really annoying! You guys should decide if you want to have discussions with people from all over the world (who went through the trouble to learn your language) or want to make this a pure American/English forum just as myrnova complained!
(On the board of a German company no less )
You have no idea how jingoist this makes you look...

Chillax bro, twas a joke, hence the " "

It's just gotten to a point, where I stopped finding it funny at all.
It's just maddening to write an angry/happy/insightfull/whatever post, and then to see it reduced to a spelling mistake!
I would probably find it just as annoying if my native language were English.