MIDI Controllers... the final solution...

supster · Post by **supster** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:00 am

Komplex wrote:If you have stuff that needs dedicated controls for tweakability and hands on jamming you can build a midibox to your specifications and control it.

Touchscreen for everything else, quick and direct control of parametres that you don't use all the time. Also, if the laptop was flat on the table, the screen wouldn't be a barrier between the player and the crowd.

yeah, a hybrid. good points.

parameters you dont use all the time = everything you currently need to do with mouse .. opening browsers, dragging clips etc ..

i really hope they're reading some of this stuff ...
.

thx1138 · Post by **thx1138** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:23 am

I like where your going with this people I too think Live need a rethink in the GUI/layout department. Like Supster said (I was just thinking to myself before I read his poet) How cool would a switchable interface be? One or live use the other for DAW use!
I'd love to see various screens such as up to three - four waveform/launch/envolope widows or VST's, effects and instriments screen modular displays being able to be used freely on a dual screen set up that would be the bom! A modualar concept for the various windows the you could conbine in differnt ways. Imagine dropping screen set ups from the browser? Sexual!!!

Support for OSC is a must cos the Lemur is deffo looking the way to go for future development of controllers, can wait for Live 6!

Living_Fiction · Post by **Living_Fiction** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:29 am

supster wrote:
Komplex wrote:If you have stuff that needs dedicated controls for tweakability and hands on jamming you can build a midibox to your specifications and control it.

Touchscreen for everything else, quick and direct control of parametres that you don't use all the time. Also, if the laptop was flat on the table, the screen wouldn't be a barrier between the player and the crowd.

yeah, a hybrid. good points.

parameters you dont use all the time = everything you currently need to do with mouse .. opening browsers, dragging clips etc ..

i really hope they're reading some of this stuff ...
.

Mice are limited, but really the only thing without annoying limits on a controller. I find it hard to be able to activate multiple clips with a mouse at the same time when I have to reach across the screen. As I said though, MIDI controllers only let you fit so many buttons...Mice don't have that limit. You can always switch scenes with a scrolling thing, but it's just something that takes out the fluidness.

Livewire · Post by **Livewire** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:20 am

Living_Fiction wrote: Mice are limited, but really the only thing without annoying limits on a controller. I find it hard to be able to activate multiple clips with a mouse at the same time when I have to reach across the screen. As I said though, MIDI controllers only let you fit so many buttons...Mice don't have that limit. You can always switch scenes with a scrolling thing, but it's just something that takes out the fluidness.

well thats where the lemur comes in

. it takes the best from both the tactibilty of hardware controllers, and the adaptibility of software. you can have many controllers with different layouts in one machine, just by switching through them with a button.

Living_Fiction · Post by **Living_Fiction** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:28 am

The problem with that is, 1 it doesn't actually support AL, unless you actually mod the program, and 2 it costs a crap load...Programs need to start being hands on out of the box. It would be an advantage for over "hardware purists", and might actually change their minds...

2kilo · Post by **2kilo** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:01 am

seems to be a quite a bit of interest, but a little off topic...

Below is the last plan drawing for people to carve up...

There are two aspects that I can't live without:
1/ a crossfader
2/ a trackball mouse/joystick/scratchball...

the second point is really important [to me] as carting a mouse round is crap, while a roller/trackball can really add to a performance...

What I'm trying to do is NOT create the ultimate controller, which would end up costing big $$$$, but put forward a more generic solution which although focused on Live would also appeal to other systems [and therfore manufacturers?]. Something costing under, say 450 euros, that's better than the current crop...

CONCEPT:
__________________________________________________

Combine as many performance controls as possible into one unit:
1/ Vertical Faders [volumes]
2/ Punch/trigger buttons [samples, on/off]
3/ Round control pots [eq/filters]
4/ Mouse control [trackball/joystick]
5/ Crossfader [removable]
6/ Headphone point [audio in from sound card /out to 1/4" jack]

CONSTRUCTION:

1/ A faceplate with screw holes for installation [booth or flightcase]
[Faceplates can be screen printed with your own labels]
2/ Tougher compontents [closer to DJ mixer materials]

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:07 am

Griffin Powermate has turned out to be a fantastic solution for me for scrolling through hundreds of scenes and launching them with two movements.

I've alphabetized my scenes, made a 'dummy' scene for each letter of the alphabet, and assigned each dummy scene a letter on the computer keyboard. All I've got to do is his 's', for example, which takes me to the dummy 's' scene, scroll quickly to the required scene with the Powermate, and push down on the top of the Powermate to launch the scene.

And the blue lighting on the bottom of the Powermate is icing on the cake...

This would do the trick, too, although you can obviously only change one parameter at a time: http://www.wacom-europe.com/int/product ... sp?lang=en

vip32 · Post by **vip32** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:38 am

Has any of you guys thought of building such a controller yourself, with a doepfer print like the CTM64?

(oh, and these make nice button launchpads too : http://www.fentek-ind.com/keypad.htm#kpp24ps)

Living_Fiction · Post by **Living_Fiction** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:00 am

2kilo wrote:seems to be a quite a bit of interest, but a little off topic...

Below is the last plan drawing for people to carve up...

There are two aspects that I can't live without:
1/ a crossfader
2/ a trackball mouse/joystick/scratchball...

the second point is really important [to me] as carting a mouse round is crap, while a roller/trackball can really add to a performance...

What I'm trying to do is NOT create the ultimate controller, which would end up costing big $$$$, but put forward a more generic solution which although focused on Live would also appeal to other systems [and therfore manufacturers?]. Something costing under, say 450 euros, that's better than the current crop...

CONCEPT:
__________________________________________________

Combine as many performance controls as possible into one unit:
1/ Vertical Faders [volumes]
2/ Punch/trigger buttons [samples, on/off]
3/ Round control pots [eq/filters]
4/ Mouse control [trackball/joystick]
5/ Crossfader [removable]
6/ Headphone point [audio in from sound card /out to 1/4" jack]

CONSTRUCTION:

1/ A faceplate with screw holes for installation [booth or flightcase]
[Faceplates can be screen printed with your own labels]
2/ Tougher compontents [closer to DJ mixer materials]

Even though that is a rather simplistic/basic design, I'd have to say it's actually about the most intuitive, and clean one I have seen so far.

vip32 wrote:Has any of you guys thought of building such a controller yourself, with a doepfer print like the CTM64?

(oh, and these make nice button launchpads too : http://www.fentek-ind.com/keypad.htm#kpp24ps)

To be honest, out of all the ideas I have seen for a easy/simple/cheap solution, this is by far the best one for launching clips.

2kilo · Post by **2kilo** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

"a rather simplistic/basic design"

yeah that's where the difficulty comes:
- the more overcomplicated, specialized, the smaller the potential user group becomes...
- A simpler unit allows the user to create their own method of working...

It would be easy to design a detailed, specialist Live controller but in the process you would probably force users to work in a certain way, while alienating other digital platforms...

intuitive is way....

Living_Fiction · Post by **Living_Fiction** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:41 am

2kilo wrote:"a rather simplistic/basic design"

yeah that's where the difficulty comes:
- the more overcomplicated, specialized, the smaller the potential user group becomes...
- A simpler unit allows the user to create their own method of working...

It would be easy to design a detailed, specialist Live controller but in the process you would probably force users to work in a certain way, while alienating other digital platforms...

intuitive is way....

I agree. Intuitivness is the way to go. I've actually seen pretty much nothing, but useful features on your design. The only thing I would add is kill switches next to each EQ knob. I would aslo make it so there is a middle selection for the crossfader assignment so you could actually have it so it's not assigned to either side. Most people are trying to fit a million different buttons, but just about all of those designs take out of the flow, and really add clutter to a program which was designed to be intuitive.

supster · Post by **supster** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:06 pm

Living_Fiction wrote:
supster wrote:
Komplex wrote:If you have stuff that needs dedicated controls for tweakability and hands on jamming you can build a midibox to your specifications and control it.

Touchscreen for everything else, quick and direct control of parametres that you don't use all the time. Also, if the laptop was flat on the table, the screen wouldn't be a barrier between the player and the crowd.

yeah, a hybrid. good points.

parameters you dont use all the time = everything you currently need to do with mouse .. opening browsers, dragging clips etc ..

i really hope they're reading some of this stuff ...
.
Mice are limited, but really the only thing without annoying limits on a controller. I find it hard to be able to activate multiple clips with a mouse at the same time when I have to reach across the screen. As I said though, MIDI controllers only let you fit so many buttons...Mice don't have that limit. You can always switch scenes with a scrolling thing, but it's just something that takes out the fluidness.

we're talking about making the interface a touchscreen for everything you now have to do with the mouse

ie. to open the browser, touch the arrow. to drag a clip(s), touch the file and drag it into a slot. or anything else you can think of of that nature

everything else that would work better with a midi controller, still would be ..
.

Living_Fiction · Post by **Living_Fiction** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:12 pm

supster wrote:
Living_Fiction wrote:
supster wrote:
yeah, a hybrid. good points.

parameters you dont use all the time = everything you currently need to do with mouse .. opening browsers, dragging clips etc ..

i really hope they're reading some of this stuff ...
.
Mice are limited, but really the only thing without annoying limits on a controller. I find it hard to be able to activate multiple clips with a mouse at the same time when I have to reach across the screen. As I said though, MIDI controllers only let you fit so many buttons...Mice don't have that limit. You can always switch scenes with a scrolling thing, but it's just something that takes out the fluidness.

we're talking about making the interface a touchscreen for everything you now have to do with the mouse

ie. to open the browser, touch the arrow. to drag a clip(s), touch the file and drag it into a slot. or anything else you can think of of that nature

everything else that would work better with a midi controller, still would be ..
.

Thank's for clearifying. Yes, I was quick to relize that knobs, and faders, are by far better with actual hardware (3D hands on control). Everything else would be better with Touch Screen, for sure.

vip32 · Post by **vip32** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:39 pm

Are the pots on the right (above the buttons) endless? If so you can add some group selection buttons and you can use them for anything you want. The controller now is verry track/clip based, i see nothing to control e.g. an operator on some track. Maybe the endless knobs can help here...

damn, why i such a controller not on sale

YET

Living_Fiction · Post by **Living_Fiction** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:56 pm

This is a nice programable pad.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... &CatId=536