Why cant midi clock take buffer settings/pdc into account?

[timothyallan]

I am borrowing a lovely Machinedrum for a while, and have just synced it up to Live. I am monitoring through Live, and I am now becoming oh so irritated because I have to keep adjusting the midi delay every time I:

a. Insert a plugin - Really!? Live doesn't account for plugin latency with midi delay, so I have to open preferences and boost my midi delay up another notch EVERY time I insert a VST/AU/VSTi. Live is aware of the latency induced by the plugin, or Plugin Delay Compensation internally wouldn't work.

b. Change the buffer settings - Live doesn't account for time added with buffer size, when it clearly tells me how many ms delay I am getting now that I've changed buffer sizes.

Any ideas or workarounds for this? Do people with external gear that needs tight timing REALLY have to adjust midi sync each time they do one of these things?

I'm going through a Motu828Mkii on 10.5.5 Macbook Pro 2.4Ghz.

[Lo-Fi Massahkah]

* curious *

[Joost]

I also think this is a good and importand question

[WaveRider]

well I came to the conclusion that Ableton won't ever get the midi right.... I am preparing to change apps or go hardware... when recording midi in Ableton, just bouncing midi internally causes delays, not counting if your track is in monitoring mode or not.... plus all the mentioned midi clock/audio latency issues that gets you constantly adjusting midi delays on tracks etc... plus no automatic latency adjustment when ableton is the slave... I just got out of a long mess cause I was bouncing midi from track to track to make synth layers, and had an arpegiator plugin (chord mode) on a receiving track, it caused all sorts of timing related issues like triggering 2 chords at the same time etc... I think I will plug back an old amiga just to see if I like it better on the midi side... I had total modular midi back then.... lets compare the timing when recording midi from a grovebox.... ableton gives me like 15ms of delay when the track is in monitoring mode and live is slaved to midi clock. not hard to beat even by a 20 year old computer I guess!

the thing is that pisses me off the most is the enormous internal latency when bouncing midi internally, when a track feeds chords to another track having an arpegiator, and you record that (all internal bouncing) and the timing is delayed by that much, it does not look good for any midi application.

all that because ableton prefers recording the timing of midi that is heard (i.e. delayed), not the original timing of the midi clip itself.

[siddhu]

It would be great to have some official answers on this.

[dom]

I checked the case Timothy also submitted to the support on the 17th and the answers the team gave.
By using the external instrument device, Live should compensate the latencies correctly for your external gear.
After the last mail there was no feedback anymore, thus the case being closed for now. How did things turn out in the meantime, Timothy?

Waverider: Regarding the bouncing issue, did you file a support request with steps to recreate the setup and workflow you're experiencing?

In general it's a good idea to talk this stuff in the bugs&problems forum as it is pretty hard to monitor each thread over here in the geneal one.

Cheers,
Dom

[WaveRider]

Waverider: Regarding the bouncing issue, did you file a support request with steps to recreate the setup and workflow you're experiencing?

this issue has been discussed in about 100 threads; anyway spending time documenting stuff for Ableton is a waste of my time, and I had done it in the past (for nothing)... ...if you can't test your midi yourself you are just wasting my time, this "record midi as it is heard (with the delay) issue" has infuriated many users and caused a near riot in this forum.... aren't you even aware of midi isses? NO, cause you do not even have setup where you can test it at ableton HQ

JUST FREAKING CONNECT MIDI DEVICES AND START DEBUGGING OK?????

I am fiddling all day with midi delay issues; just try it, you will see for yourself

I have given up on maintaining proper midi clock/ midi track timing, I just record and align the audio within clips now


the important part for you is:
if I bounce midi from 1 track to another within live I DO NOT want to record delayed midi....

it can be understandable if I would go thru external gear but why internal midi delays when I bounce?????

[dom]

Waverider: Regarding the bouncing issue, did you file a support request with steps to recreate the setup and workflow you're experiencing?

this issue has been discussed in about 100 threads;

Searching for "bouncing midi clips delay" returns 7 hits, those don't seem to be of any help. Maybe you can go a bit more into details?

JUST FREAKING CONNECT MIDI DEVICES AND START DEBUGGING OK?????

Shouting at me during my free time on a sunday evening does not really help.
Not actually getting mad at you but it seems to be rude and demotiviating to help you - therefore it's actually counterproductive, i'm afraid.

Somehow it sounds like you think it's fun to us to see you suffering from or not looking into problems?
Honestly, it's not, so let's try to keep emotions out of such conversations and not getting too timuresque.

I am fiddling all day with midi delay issues; just try it, you will see for yourself

*setting up 2 midi tracks, recording midi clip playing in track 1 in track 2*

Seems to work. Can you give me more details, it seems to me there's more involved than just that.

the important part for you is:
if I bounce midi from 1 track to another within live I DO NOT want to record delayed midi....

See above. More details available?

Please file a support request or refer to an existing one containing a useful description and i'm happy to personally take care about getting an official statement.
If you expect help from a forum thread, please don't post it in the general forum but in the bugs&problems section.

Thanks a lot, mate!
Dom

[timothyallan]

After the last mail there was no feedback anymore, thus the case being closed for now. How did things turn out in the meantime, Timothy?
Cheers,
Dom

Well Dom, I finally gave up. None of the tips you guys provided helped, it all led to the same result... no gear syncing up without constant manipulation of the various delays.... until I stopped using my Motu 828Mkii as my midi interface.

I have some friends who told me that their Ultralites didn't like syncing external gear with Live as well, so for kicks I tried sending midi clock out my Remote Zero SL via usb into the Machinedrum and voila, everything synched for longer than 3 minutes!!

This is strange because the Machinedrum syncs up through Logic 8 via the Motu, so it's got to be a combination of things involving Live and the Motu. All Motu units use the same drivers, so I'm led to believe this might have something to do with it... On the other hand, surely there are other Motu users out there who sync ext. gear just fine to Live?

Either way, I just want to make some fricken music and by using a second midi interface Live stays in sync long enough for me to record the MD.

[VduchnWJ]

What the is PDC?

Maybe Silent Way can improve on these midi timing issues? Have not tried it yet as have soldering iron burn out issues and awaiting new one before making up dc couple cable. Not sure if Silent Way can do sync24.

Cheers

B

[doghouse]

am monitoring through Live

Do Not Do This. Monitor outside of the computer, most interfaces support this.

[Angstrom]

You are now aware that this thread features a FIVE YEAR necrobump

[Khazul]

Is this the old problem that the midi clock doesnt honour whatever settings you have for the track or external instrument and only at best honours the setting in preferences?

If so - agree and v annoying!

When you calibrate this yourself - you are effectively taking PDC etc into account as normally you time the round trip - one clip sends a note, another clip records the note and you inspect the result to work out the amount of componsation required. It is probbaly possible to create an M4L tool to automate this.

I just wish the clock would work out and account for the full round trip the user has set up via external instrument device etc to keep the notes and clock in sync.