Behavior of the send dial

[kirre777]

When you use a send effect on a return track, how much of the effect is routed back to a track when the send dial is at 100%?

For example; If I put a reverb with a dry/wet setting of 100% on return track A and the go to a normal audio track and crank up the A send dial all the way to 100% I will not get a 100% wet reverb signal. But how much is it? 50%?

[Khazul]

Yes - its equiv to 50% wet insert if the return track level is at 0dB.

[chapelier fou]

Yes - its equiv to 50% wet insert if the return track level is at 0dB.

+3dB (or am i wrong ?)

[chrk]

When you use a send effect on a return track, how much of the effect is routed back to a track when the send dial is at 100%?

Zero. The return track does not 'return' to the channel at all, it goes to the bus you set in its "Audio To".

For example; If I put a reverb with a dry/wet setting of 100% on return track A and the go to a normal audio track and crank up the A send dial all the way to 100% I will not get a 100% wet reverb signal. But how much is it? 50%?

The return track is 100% wet - solo it.
Duplicate your orignial track, copy the reverb from the return into that - solo it.
Compare.

[chrk]

Yes - its equiv to 50% wet insert if the return track level is at 0dB.

+3dB (or am i wrong ?)

Another way to test.

Place an audio clip in an empty track, set Send A to 100%.
Delete any effect from Return A, both track faders at 0 dB.
Play and watch the peak indicators of your track and Return A.
Your Master track's peak should be about 6dB higher, within a margin, - you're practically summing the track and Send A.

[yur2die4]

100% Send means, an exact replica of that channel's output, including the gain, is being sent to the Return channel's input.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean, at 100% you can completely phase cancel a track using a Utility on a Return.

[chrk]

100% Send means, an exact replica of that channel's output, including the gain, is being sent to the Return channel's input.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean, at 100% you can completely phase cancel a track using a Utility on a Return.

The only exception would be setting that send pre-fader.

[yur2die4]

True, in which case the send is 100% = Fader at 0.

So then beyond that, when the fader is at 50%, does it simply divide the amplitude by 2? And so on? Percentage is directly related to percentage of waveform amplitude?

[chrk]

So then beyond that, when the fader is at 50%, does it simply divide the amplitude by 2? And so on? Percentage is directly related to percentage of waveform amplitude?

Don't forget the fader - if you're talking about the track fader, here - is logarithmic. An attenuation by 6dB would halve the volume.

[Khazul]

I think half way is about -20dB through the send/return which is about 1/10th of original signal sample value.

If you really want to check all this - read up on log db <-> signal voltage scaling (probably something on wiki) and stick a synth emitting a continuous tone in a track, adjust it to 0 db, or -6.02, or -12.04 etc and fiddle and see what exact levels you can read elsewhere.

You will need to enlarge the slider area in a track to see the scale and the peak value indicator.

[kirre777]

So the send dial adds the signal from the return track to a maximum of 50%. How come it doesn't go to 100%, Acting more like a crossfader between the original signal and the wet signal?

[yur2die4]

People commonly use sends to send signal to a completely wet effect. It isn't usually used to transition a signal through an effect. That is more for Inserts, or in the case of Live, adding fx to the individual channel to sculpt a sound.

But you can still accomplish a crossfade of the dry and wet signal with a little setting up.

[chrk]

So the send dial adds the signal from the return track to a maximum of 50%.

WRONG! [Sorry for the shouting, but did you stop reading at Khazul's confusing#2?]

How come it doesn't go to 100%,

Think of the return track as a parallel signal path. On it's bus (usually the master) it arrives at 100%, but this bus is a/the mixbus. So it's SUMMED with the original signal and any other signal played out on that bus.

Acting more like a crossfader between the original signal and the wet signal?

If you want to balance dry/wet on your sum, you usually put an effect in an insert (i.e. the chain below the original track).
Or, if you want this and use the same effect for several tracks at once, switch the send to "Pre"-Fader with the button in the master track that usually says "Post" and volume-automate the original tracks' faders.

[Khazul]

So the send dial adds the signal from the return track to a maximum of 50%.

WRONG! [Sorry for the shouting, but did you stop reading at Khazul's equally wrong #2?]

Which wrong #2?

I dont think there anything wrong in what I have posted, if there is - point it out exactly. Run a stable test tone through if you are not sure and read the dB values, then you can convert them to actual relative sample multipliers.

IIRC -20dB is 1/10th voltage in the analog world and so 1/10th sample value in the digital world.
Doubling of sample value in the digital world is equivalent double of the voltage in the analog world (sample values are directly related to voltage values) which is +6.02dB, the same as summing a signal with itself.

These hold true in Live on sends when nothing else (no other gain controls) is impacting that. You can easily show with a stable (loop a note in operator default patch for eg) test tone that a send at 100% sends 100% of the signal (pre or post depending on return setting) into it corresponding return track as when you have the return track level at 0dB gain, then you will see the result if the original track and the return track summed in the master at about 6dB (actually 6.02).

If you crank the send to about halfway so it is vertical when displayed as a knob, then you will probably find the corresponding dB value (visible when you narrow the track too much to display as a knob), then will display as -20dB with half of the slider area highlighted.

If there is something wrong in that - please tell and perhaps take it up with ANSI.

[chrk]

Which wrong #2?

I dont think there anything wrong in what I have posted, if there is - point it out exactly.

Sorry, i misread your #2.
From the summing standpoint, and with both track faders at equal level, you're right.

Edited above.