Midas Venice and Live - Questions!

[requ]

So as part of 2013's plan to get OTB as much as possible I got myself a Midas Venice F24. It's my first ever mixing console and I wanted to make sure to get the best I could.

But it is awesome. I'm running a 12U Euro set-up into it plus a Tanzbar. As a purely analogue solution it is great. But I don't have the same kind of hardware effects as I do plug-ins and so I want to make use of the firewire.

I previously had a Saffire Pro 40 AI so it was no problem getting Live to recognise the Midas and to route strips to channels in Live. But I do have some issues...

I won't lie, this is seriously challenging to me. I feel a bit out of my depth.

Adjusting the faders on the Midas doesn't affect the volume of a channel in Live. That doesn't seem right.

Can I get my soundcard's audio out to the Midas? I'm beginning to suspect I still need to use an AI, but as the Saffire is also firewire and I only have one firewire in, will a firewire hub suffice? Even if it's apparently 2 FW inputs, they are just the same port and shared bandwidth... right?

Is it possible to route the master from the Midas into Live?

If you can share your knowledge that would be awesome!

[reeloy]

...seems you mix some things up here....

the midas f24 is an amzazing mixer and interface.....no need for another audio inteface...

but if you want faders to control live you need a controler....the midas can't do this for you...

but what it can do is, to let you route any audio signal in and out at the same time....

so your plan to use fx out of the box will work....no problem to give a live mic signal a reverb or whatsoever from ableton in realtime...

[requ]

...seems you mix some things up here....

the midas f24 is an amzazing mixer and interface.....no need for another audio inteface...

but if you want faders to control live you need a controler....the midas can't do this for you...

but what it can do is, to let you route any audio signal in and out at the same time....

so your plan to use fx out of the box will work....no problem to give a live mic signal a reverb or whatsoever from ableton in realtime...

Actually what I want to do is control the level of the signal coming into live with my Midas faders. Is that possible? I have a bcr that can control levels in live

Is that even the way you use a mixer? Am i just wrong in thinking to do that with the Midas?


Yeah, awesome that I can bring a signal in and send it out at the same time. Discovered that last night

[chrk]

Adjusting the faders on the Midas doesn't affect the volume of a channel in Live. That doesn't seem right.

But totally possible. The Mute switch on a channel doesn't mute the signal to Firewire or Direct Out either, see p. 39, 50 of the Venice's manual.

Remember, it's a live board first with a recording option (or insert option) to Firewire second.
Prowling the manual I have only seen options to switch a channel's FW-Out pre-/post-EQ. - The Firewire acts pretty much like a Direct Out after gain control.

[requ]

Found out that in the Venice, the digital output is taken from the same point as the analogue Direct Output. In the default configuration, this is switchable on the panel between pre-EQ and post-EQ, both of these being pre-fader. This means that the channel faders do not affect the digitised signal level, as you have found out. However, by changing an internal jumper on each channel (the "Post Fade Link"), the post-EQ setting can be turned into a post-fader setting. In this latter position, the digitised level is taken after the channel fader.

slowly the mystery unravels...

[chrk]

However, by changing an internal jumper on each channel (the "Post Fade Link"), the post-EQ setting can be turned into a post-fader setting. In this latter position, the digitised level is taken after the channel fader.

slowly the mystery unravels...

Goooood. The jumper bit totally escaped me.

[requ]

Quick question, i've over written 23/24 with my master and set Live to pick it up, but it comes in so quiet. What shows as 0 dB on the Midas is -12.95 in Live.

Any ideas what that means?

[chrk]

What shows as 0 dB on the Midas is -12.95 in Live.

Any ideas what that means?

That means lots of headroom between the analog and digital domain, and an absolutely safe level to record.

dB is not one universal scale, there's several Suffixes and reference levels. The board's meters show dBu, Live's faders and peak indicators show dBFS.

What you see there is just how the board is calibrated for digital output.

[requ]

cool, thanks. that makes total sense now.

the only question i have then is how do you get round that? I mean, if i'm recording into Live it's coming in at -12. Unless i red line it in the Venice, which goes against everything i know.

[chrk]

the only question i have then is how do you get round that? I mean, if i'm recording into Live it's coming in at -12. Unless i red line it in the Venice, which goes against everything i know.

You either don't 'get around that' and raise levels in Live after the fact. Mixing for the finished product, applying effects, maybe even just adding gain with a Utility, may get you there anyway. Polishing the thing to release grade levels and loudness I would leave to a skilled mastering engineer.

Or
drive your board as hot as it still sounds good. Some light analog clipping may even add a bit without sounding nasty. Just not let it brutally distort, and leave enough headroom in the digital signal. To my ears (and my converters) digital overs ARE evil. Same about the polishing as above, though.

[requ]

thanks for the pointer. i got my levels to -5db without having to even get to clipping so it seems it's all good. i think i'll leave the utility off and not smash it into a limiter either. not really into that whole way of doing things. as you say, best left to a skilled mastering engineer.

so next, question. it comes in five parts
---
lets say i have tracks 1 - 4 as a small kit. they're all going into stereo. and i can hear them out my master, no problems.

but if i switch them to mono and raise the mono fader (yellow) i get nothing. what am I doing wrong?
---
then, the groups and aux. i'm a bit confused on these.

if we go back to tracks 1- 4... they set to stereo and i get them out my master. if i route the tracks to group 3, then set that to override stereo channel 19/20, in Live they only come in the left. i have to route to group 4 as well for stereo. that right? i lost my panning and have no way to get it back as far as i can see. Surely sending something to a group shouldn't do that?
---
i have my faders on tracks 1 - 4 set to unity. my group fader is at it's base. when i listen through my master, i still get the full volume of tracks 1 - 4. Surely the group fader should now control their unified volume and it should be silent?

if i slide the faders on group 3 & 4 up, i see the meter led's light up, but there is no effect on volume.
---
ok, last one.

aux. i dial in some aux on tracks 1 - 4 using aux 1 & 2. I override stereo 17/18 with the aux 1 & 2. I see the signal arrive in Live. But it doesn't show up at my master out on the desk.
---

one thing worth noting is that in none of the above instances do i see any action on the fader meters for the stereo channels.

I'm sure there's something pretty basic i'm not getting here. any pointers would be great.

Thanks!

[chrk]

First off: I don't know the board, I only look at the manual.

lets say i have tracks 1 - 4 as a small kit. they're all going into stereo. and i can hear them out my master, no problems.

but if i switch them to mono and raise the mono fader (yellow) i get nothing. what am I doing wrong?

The board has a separate mono bus with a dedicated output socket at the rear.

---
then, the groups and aux. i'm a bit confused on these.

if we go back to tracks 1- 4... they set to stereo and i get them out my master. if i route the tracks to group 3, then set that to override stereo channel 19/20, in Live they only come in the left. i have to route to group 4 as well for stereo. that right? i lost my panning and have no way to get it back as far as i can see. Surely sending something to a group shouldn't do that?

The group busses are mono, and the group-firewire-override options are in pairs. Look at pp.39/40 in the manual and experiment with the pan-to-groups-button.

---
i have my faders on tracks 1 - 4 set to unity. my group fader is at it's base. when i listen through my master, i still get the full volume of tracks 1 - 4. Surely the group fader should now control their unified volume and it should be silent?

if i slide the faders on group 3 & 4 up, i see the meter led's light up, but there is no effect on volume.

The groups have dedicated outputs as well, but (I'm guessing here) engaging the stereo switch in a group's output section routs it to the stereo master bus (pp.57/58).

---
ok, last one.

aux. i dial in some aux on tracks 1 - 4 using aux 1 & 2. I override stereo 17/18 with the aux 1 & 2. I see the signal arrive in Live. But it doesn't show up at my master out on the desk.
---

No, it doesn't. The aux outputs are separate.

[requ]

wow, thanks so much man. i really thought you owned the board! i should be embarrassed that you got all that from the manual and i can't figure it out with the board in front of me!

[madlab]

RTFM... I guess. And consider reading about the fundamentals of mixing consoles, for your maximum pleasure and immediate benefit.