Chord Progressions

[Buleriachk]

I would like to use the drum rack to trigger chords that I define using the Chord Midi device, using the same instrument, so I have a free choice on the pads to trigger major, minor, 7th chords in a particular key. As an example, the Andalusian cadence:
Am -> G7 -> F -> E where E is a major chord (and could also be E7), with several voicings allowed for each chord (like a guitar).

So far I can only get single notes out, or the same chord for all the pads on the drum rack. The only alternative I can see would be to instantiate the instrument in each chain, which is a huge problem if one wants to change the instrument quickly.

The drum rack has only audio out but no MIDI (that I can see), so I can't trigger another track with the notes generated by the device; if I use a track with a synth preceded by a chord device, I can only get one type of chord.

Any ideas about how to do this?

[Khazul]

Perhaps using the external instrument plugin in each chain might help - you can route it to a plugin.

Or, maybe this midi rack I made will help:

Key Chords

Its a simple midi rack based on a scale and chord to give you useful one-finger in-key chords (ie it chooses minor or major for you) and has options for raising 3rd/5th/7th by an octave, adding a root+oct and root -octave and can remove 5th/7th etc.

It only supports major keys directly so for minor keys just select the relative major (C for Am for eg - ie add 3 semitones to whatever minor key you want).

BTW - for the knobs, the semi-tones offsets for 3rds, 5ths, 7ths are given in the macro labels if you don't know what they are - set to one of the given number to get the right offset (off, normal or raised by an octave).

Its good for rooted chords in a lot of house and trance etc.

Another approach is instead of a drum rack, perhaps just a normal midi rack and assign keys to specific chains.

[Buleriachk]

I emphasize that I want my own chord voicings (unique to Flamenco, major, minor, 7th and beyond on any root/pad note), with the note combinations on a per chord device per trigger (pad)basis with the ability to change instruments for ALL pads simultaneously (so separate chains may not work) and easily..... nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe the external instrument on each pad... can the output midi of each pad then be routed to a single track (which would contain the vst plugin)?

Perhaps using the external instrument plugin in each chain might help - you can route it to a plugin.

Or, maybe this midi rack I made will help:

Key Chords

Its a simple midi rack based on a scale and chord to give you useful one-finger in-key chords (ie it chooses minor or major for you) and has options for raising 3rd/5th/7th by an octave, adding a root+oct and root -octave and can remove 5th/7th etc.

It only supports major keys directly so for minor keys, then just select the relative major (C for Am for eg - ie add 3 semitones to whatever minor key you want).

BTW - for the knobs, the semi-tones offsets for 3rds, 5ths, 7ths are given in the macro labels if you don't know what they are - set to one of the given number to get the right offset (off, normal or raised by an octave).

Its good for rooted chords in a lot of house and trance etc.

Another approach is instead of a drum rack, perhaps just a normal midi rack using the chain selector.

[Khazul]

I would use a midi rack. Create a chain, select key, drag range down to one note.
Duplicate the chain and drag the selected note to the next up.. etc for each special chord that you need. Now drop in your pre-created chords into the chains and yo hould be good to go.

It may still be worth looking at a 'spanish gypsy' type preset for scale to see if it might save some effort combined with a few shiftable (for inversions) chord presets.

[Buleriachk]

The heart of Flamenco is the way the chord progressions work in the accompaniment of the cante.....

The problem with your suggestion (as I understand it) is that I would have to assign the same preset in the same VST for every chord I create; I don't want to do this, since it would make very painful to change instruments, particularly if there are a large number of chords defined for the same instrument (vst). Not to mention the additional hit on cpu.

I think by "MIDI effect" you mean "Chord Device", which is what I've been referring to all along, and have experimented with for some time.. I'll go read the manual again, but last time I looked, that's all there was.....

I need a large palette of chords, because I need to switch chords (and keys) instantaneously (as Flamenco singers sometimes do) with chord accompaniment - the pads would give me the same facility as changing chords with the left hand on the guitar.

[Buleriachk]

I think the correct name for the device I am looking for is called a "chorder", except that I want to combine the playability of the drum rack with the flexibility of the Chord Device, using a single instance of an instrument vst for all chords in the rack...

Each pad plays a different chord, defined as a chord device with arbitrary lowest note specified, with interval selection as in the chord device....

[Khazul]

The heart of Flamenco is the way the chord progressions work in the accompaniment of the cante.....

Really? You think that slamming out some 'flamenco' chords is going to give you instant flamenco?
At a minimum you can get away with probably 4 or 8 chords - 4 in Am in the E phrygian mode and 4 in Dm (A phrygian). Im sure the other common keys are normally done with a capo to make open string useable.

The fun comes with getting any of the basic chords to sound convincing alone, never mind in a phrase. The variations (AFAIK) don't just come from the chord, but come from how they are strummed - which strings are strummed and which only resonate. Then of course there is the use of open strings that tend to stick out or sing more in the chords.

Then there are passing notes - not strictly part of the chord but you might be tempted from music to include them in a chord preset. I would suggest you don't as you may end up with a crazy number of chords when in practice you only need a small number.

Anyway - I guess you know what you are after - good luck

[tkarmakid]

Maybe you could program these chords and their voicing's/inversions into some midi clips then record them into audio using the freeze function (or just record them directly as audio with your instrument of choice) which you could then load into the drum rack. Its a bit of work, but do you think that could work?

[Buleriachk]

I've been playing Flamenco guitar for over 45 years now, and have written (dare I say it?) one of the most recognized analyses of the harmonic, scale, and compas structures of Flamenco. I sing Flamenco as well, and trained my wife to dance; we had an arts grant to study in Spain, and you can see videos of our trip and read her report "A Flamenco Journey" - all on my website, at no cost. I lived in Moron de la Frontera and studied with Diego del Gastor, and performed professionally on the Costa Brava and Costa del Sol back in the day.....

I did the best I could, but unfortunately had to work as a physicist/programmer to survive in the US (especially during the Reagan era...)

Anyway, check out my site.....

(What would you do if a singer were singing por Bulerias in copla in A Phrygian and suddenly switched to cuple in A major, using the relative F#m in that key as well? With the guitar capo on the 4th fret, yet. Or accompany the cambio in Bulerias or the Silencio in Alegrias? Or.....)

But I can already play Flamenco, thank you. I want to experiment with other instruments remaining reasonably close to the traditional idiom, if that makes sense. I get really bored with picado practice sometimes......

The heart of Flamenco is the way the chord progressions work in the accompaniment of the cante.....

Really? You think that slamming out some 'flamenco' chords is going to give you instant flamenco?
At a minimum you can get away with probably 4 or 8 chords - 4 in Am in the E phrygian mode and 4 in Dm (A phrygian). Im sure the other common keys are normally done with a capo to make open string useable.

The fun comes with getting any of the basic chords to sound convincing alone, never mind in a phrase. The variations (AFAIK) don't just come from the chord, but come from how they are strummed - which strings are strummed and which only resonate. Then of course there is the use of open strings that tend to stick out or sing more in the chords.

Then there are passing notes - not strictly part of the chord but you might be tempted from music to include them in a chord preset. I would suggest you don't as you may end up with a crazy number of chords when in practice you only need a small number.

Anyway - I guess you know what you are after - good luck

[freepuppies]

If you have an iPad, this actually sounds a lot like what an app called ChordPolyPad does. It allows the user to select a pad and assign a chord to it. I think it's probably playable through MIDI if you want to use it on a drum pad type instrument. I've recently discovered the app and really love it for chord progressions.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/chordpo ... 99930?mt=8

[Buleriachk]

So far I have most of the chords I use sampled at the position I usually use directly from my Flamenco guitar, so can "play the guitar" using a drum rack. But I get bored.....

Recording a single instrument is not worth the effort; I want to experiment with tonal texture; I already know what the chords sound like (I was fooling around with Guitar Rig for awhile, and the effects can be fun, but not what I'm after)

Maybe you could program these chords and their voicing's/inversions into some midi clips then record them into audio using the freeze function (or just record them directly as audio with your instrument of choice) which you could then load into the drum rack. Its a bit of work, but do you think that could work?

[Khazul]

My weapons of choice when trying to abuse flamenco have been sample loops and melodyne polyphonic editing along with lots of cutting and pasting.

I think its probably one of the hardest guitar styles to attempt to reproduce from midi (along with other romany derive styles).

I am curious - you can obviously play, so in theory you have no need to attempt to reproduce (unlike us poor sods who even with some understanding of it have not a hope in hell and so resort to hacking around with sample loops etc). What it it you are trying to achieve (as Im kind of confused, if I could play, then I would just play and process it to get something different) - perhaps knowing what you ultimately have in mind may help.

Another thing I might do would be record my guitar playing then load the result into melodyne to extract the midi and mabe use that to do something different with it etc.

Im kind of intersted as TBH Im getting bored of chopping up sample loops or butchering them in melodyne for spanish house

[H20nly]

I am curious - you can obviously play, so in theory you have no need to attempt to reproduce (unlike us poor sods who even with some understanding of it have not a hope in hell and so resort to hacking around with sample loops etc). What it it you are trying to achieve (as Im kind of confused, if I could play, then I would just play and process it to get something different) - perhaps knowing what you ultimately have in mind may help.

+1

it sounds like you know how to play the instrument that you are attempting to mimic very well... are you going after an accompaniment of some sort that you do not have the correct guitar/instrument for?

Audio to MIDI??

[Buleriachk]

I want to try some of the instruments from Komplete 9 Ultimate with some of the chord progressions. I don't know - maybe even sing some Bob Dylan folk songs to Push accompaniment... or C&W (I've always wondered how "Oh Lord, but it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way") would sound to Session Strings or Damage accompaniment.....

The ability to play construct and play chords from pads should be a VERY simple and logical thing to do for ANY music genre, not just Flamenco.... (actually, Flamencos are more Cale gypsies than Romani - Jerez, Moron, Cadiz much more than the south of France - although the GK's are calo, they are not very flamenco....)..

Sheesh, for the same a flute player purchase Live/Push/Maschine; intellectual curiosity about he direction and expansion (or contraction) of music if nothing else? Hey, I have no illusions about whipping out a Launchpad in the middle of the night at a Flamenco fiesta in Jerez....)

My weapons of choice when trying to abuse flamenco have been sample loops and melodyne polyphonic editing along with lots of cutting and pasting.

I think its probably one of the hardest guitar styles to attempt to reproduce from midi (along with other romany derive styles).

I am curious - you can obviously play, so in theory you have no need to attempt to reproduce (unlike us poor sods who even with some understanding of it have not a hope in hell and so resort to hacking around with sample loops etc). What it it you are trying to achieve (as Im kind of confused, if I could play, then I would just play and process it to get something different) - perhaps knowing what you ultimately have in mind may help.

Another thing I might do would be record my guitar playing then load the result into melodyne to extract the midi and mabe use that to do something different with it etc.

Im kind of intersted as TBH Im getting bored of chopping up sample loops or butchering them in melodyne for spanish house

[H20nly]

what about going this route: http://www.sweetwater.com/cs--MIDI_Pickups

this way you can kick ass in real life and just slice and dice in digiland.