Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

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Forge.
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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by Forge. » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:21 am

derzai wrote:
The Finn wrote:When everything starts making too much sense - time to change your meds.
illogical pattern seeking. domain of the arts i guess. don't trust psychiatrists that much. wouldn't be suprised if they had put da vinci on ritalin. different discussion.

logical pattern seeking. that is what science is about.


Researchers at the Institute for Logic, Language and Computation (ILLC) of the University of Amsterdam have discovered a universal property of scales. Until now it was assumed that the only thing scales throughout the world have in common is the octave. The many hundreds of scales, however, seem to possess a deeper commonalitiy: if their tones are compared in a two- or three-dimensional way by means of a coordinate system, they form convex or star-convex structures. Convex structures are patterns without indentations or holes, such as a circle, square or oval. The research results will be published this month in the scientific Journal of New Music Research.

http://www.uva.nl/en/news-events/news/u ... music.html
8)

cool post, and exactly why I think this shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

I totally agree that the "Hertz" and "Second" systems of measurement are arbitrary, and the only way to do it properly would be to go all the way down to the Planck scale or minimum possible measurement we have of vibration in the universe (which I believe is still only a limitation of our equipment as it is probably infinite, i.e. fractal) but to begin with we might at least be able to recognise geometric patterns that give an indication - so "Cymatics" is probably not such a bad idea... but it needs to be kept in mind that it is situation dependent and not absolute.

I am in favour of a "floating" standard frequency that is situation dependent.

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by re:dream » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:47 am

Note: they have discovered a property of scales, not of frequencies as such.

Scales are human constructs

So as far as I can make out ( which is not very far ) this is a common property of structures that develop out of the way our brains make sense of harmonies. Not an essential property of the universe.

Philip Ball's book has some good discussions of this I think.
Last edited by re:dream on Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by derzai » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:31 am

The Finn wrote:Note: they have discovered a property of scales, not of frequencies as such.
yep, unfortunately 12 fifths don't fit in 7 octaves.

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by derzai » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:33 am

The Finn wrote:Scales are human constructs
A New History of the Humanities: The Search for Principles and Patterns from Antiquity to the Present.

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/1 ... 0199665211

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by derzai » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:50 am

Forge. wrote:I totally agree that the "Hertz" and "Second" systems of measurement are arbitrary, and the only way to do it properly would be to go all the way down to the Planck scale or minimum possible measurement we have of vibration in the universe (which I believe is still only a limitation of our equipment as it is probably infinite, i.e. fractal) but to begin with we might at least be able to recognise geometric patterns that give an indication - so "Cymatics" is probably not such a bad idea... but it needs to be kept in mind that it is situation dependent and not absolute.
entropic gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by Forge. » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:38 am

I'm sure I still don't fully understand it, but something I keep thinking every time I hear about the concept of entropy is that is seems to be limited by the perception of those judging it and where they happen to exist in the cycle of things...

to explain - if the natural tendency of things is to head towards chaos, then what about that period of time when everything is forming into a state of 'order'?

What I mean is, because of the way a human being is born and then dies, it influences our perception of reality so that we think of things in terms of there being a beginning and and end, But I've never been able to swallow the big bang concept because I imagine the universe to be more 'fractal' and infinite, and if there was a big bang then it is just the beginning of one cycle, more like a cycle of breathing..... like an exhalation, prior to inhalation, but because our perception of 'the arrow of time' being so tiny in the grand scheme of things, we find it difficult to comprehend a breath that takes many billions of years.

So in other words, the descent into entropy is more of a 'half way' point when it goes from a tendency towards order, to beginning towards chaos.

I don't understand how if the tendency of the universe is towards entropy then why do we go from this supposed big bang state to the state we are in now if the tendency is towards chaos?

anyone with a better understanding of this, Please, feel free to explain it to me.

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by derzai » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:55 am

Forge. wrote:anyone with a better understanding of this, Please, feel free to explain it to me.
buh, i'm a layman here. will try to get across what i have understood. copied from the link:"Reversing the logic of over 300 years, it argued that gravity is a consequence of the "information associated with the positions of material bodies""
Now mr. Verlinde was on dutch tv a couple of years ago, and he told that it (entropic gravity) must be seen like there is a virtual bookkeeping of all the positions of all the tiny particles. when things get out of balance, the virtual bookkeeping sees to it that things get restored. can't make it more clear than that. sorry.

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:26 am

Forge. wrote:I'm sure I still don't fully understand it, but something I keep thinking every time I hear about the concept of entropy is that is seems to be limited by the perception of those judging it and where they happen to exist in the cycle of things...

to explain - if the natural tendency of things is to head towards chaos, then what about that period of time when everything is forming into a state of 'order'?

What I mean is, because of the way a human being is born and then dies, it influences our perception of reality so that we think of things in terms of there being a beginning and and end, But I've never been able to swallow the big bang concept because I imagine the universe to be more 'fractal' and infinite, and if there was a big bang then it is just the beginning of one cycle, more like a cycle of breathing..... like an exhalation, prior to inhalation, but because our perception of 'the arrow of time' being so tiny in the grand scheme of things, we find it difficult to comprehend a breath that takes many billions of years.

So in other words, the descent into entropy is more of a 'half way' point when it goes from a tendency towards order, to beginning towards chaos.

I don't understand how if the tendency of the universe is towards entropy then why do we go from this supposed big bang state to the state we are in now if the tendency is towards chaos?

anyone with a better understanding of this, Please, feel free to explain it to me.
Now this is an open minded approach without taking everyone for a fool! It seems I left this thread as soon as a good discussion was starting.

One thing has to be pointed out though: The trend towards order in one part, always has to come at the price of more disorder in others! The trend to disorder is a well understood physical property of the universe we live in. The one to order seems to be a physical property too, as it happens over and over as things that are ever more complex keep on arising. Unfourtunately this property is not understood that well, and beyond calling it emergent properties, there is no good description of it yet in the natural sciences. (Afaik, please correct me if I'm wrong in this. I'd like to know more)

As to the planck scale of distance: As of now it really seems, like this is the shortest distance possible. This is a result of quantum mechanics, I believe. (I'm not a physicist though). So it's not an artefact of not being able to measure shorter distances, but it's a fundamental parameter of the universe. I find this extremely fascinating! This means that reality is actually pixelated! 8O

Regarding tuning to different frequencies. The described effects of the standing waves are always very dependent on the local parameters of the listening enviroment. So it would be kind of insane to change the whole tuning system, if you could just use another space to play in.

Also, I sincerly doubt any effects on cancer cells, if only because cancer cells are normal cells that went rougue. So the pre cancer cell, was the same size with the same dimensions as the surrounding cells, that didn't go the cancer route. Since resonance is very much depending on the dimensions of the medium, I don't see how the cancer cell would respond differently do sound.

Interesting discussions arise, if open mindedness doesn't mean eschewing reason!

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by Forge. » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:37 pm

Some interesting points!
TomViolenz wrote:
As to the planck scale of distance: As of now it really seems, like this is the shortest distance possible. This is a result of quantum mechanics, I believe. (I'm not a physicist though). So it's not an artefact of not being able to measure shorter distances, but it's a fundamental parameter of the universe. I find this extremely fascinating! This means that reality is actually pixelated! 8O
This is something I'm not sure about though - likewise, I'm not a physicist, so really for me it's just a slightly educated guess, and maybe also based on an 'intuition', but when I read about string/m theory and the like I never feel satisfied at the assumption that we are capable of detecting the smallest point in the universe or that there even is such a thing. My feeling is that the universe isn't pixelated, but it keeps going on in a fractal way, like the mandelbrot-set, forever. It's just very difficult for us to comprehend this because we are used to seeing our reality as having a beginning and an ending because we are born and die and don't yet know what happens to us when we die. Although, even now physicists say that it's impossible for information to be destroyed and it only ever changes state. Maybe like if you were to watch a time lapse of matter decaying then becoming something else it would look like the mandelbrot set over billions of years. They say we each have probably a billion atoms that were also in Shakespeare or the Dinosaurs.
Regarding tuning to different frequencies. The described effects of the standing waves are always very dependent on the local parameters of the listening enviroment. So it would be kind of insane to change the whole tuning system, if you could just use another space to play in.
This is why I said this concept might better suit an installation rather than a 'gig'. As someone said before, just changing the pitch of a record is effectively changing the reference point from 440Hz. But the point is +/-8 on a turntable is doing it randomly without taking into consideration the environment, I am just saying that I think it is at least possible to have control over these parameters in a way that could be meaningful, given everything in the universe vibrates at some level.
Also, I sincerly doubt any effects on cancer cells, if only because cancer cells are normal cells that went rougue. So the pre cancer cell, was the same size with the same dimensions as the surrounding cells, that didn't go the cancer route. Since resonance is very much depending on the dimensions of the medium, I don't see how the cancer cell would respond differently do sound.

Interesting discussions arise, if open mindedness doesn't mean eschewing reason!
Of course, many people are trying to solve the cancer problem, and so still don't fully understand what "going rogue" really is or how it works. I was just using this as a simple example, but maybe those cells do vibrate at a slightly different rate than normal cells? I mean, this would have to be on a sub-atomic level and to fully understand something like that we would need to go down to the smallest possible scale we can measure, and as I said before, I wonder if no matter how small you go there is always still something smaller, but if what you said before is right and the universe is indeed pixelated, then this will mean it is possible to one day arrive at a real measurement for the Planck scale, and from that point on we can truly accurately measure everything, because it will be some kind of multiple of the smallest unit.

But for the practical purposes of this discussion: if you are in a club, and you have two speakers directly opposite each other, then at some point in between them there will be a standing wave, so the question is, what happens if you stand at that point, and does the effect change according to the frequency, or combination of frequencies/harmonics?

This is just fun to think about really, and the kind of shit I waste my time and brain power on! ;-)

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by Forge. » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:43 pm

derzai wrote:
Forge. wrote:anyone with a better understanding of this, Please, feel free to explain it to me.
buh, i'm a layman here. will try to get across what i have understood. copied from the link:"Reversing the logic of over 300 years, it argued that gravity is a consequence of the "information associated with the positions of material bodies""
Now mr. Verlinde was on dutch tv a couple of years ago, and he told that it (entropic gravity) must be seen like there is a virtual bookkeeping of all the positions of all the tiny particles. when things get out of balance, the virtual bookkeeping sees to it that things get restored. can't make it more clear than that. sorry.
I haven't had a chance to read about entropic gravity theory yet, I was talking about the concept of entropy itself.

But from what you have said here, it sounds a little bit like how magnetic fields behave... i.e. an iron filing at a point between two large magnets might have a point when it is drawn to neither more than the other, but then when some other force interacts it pushes it further towards one than the other.

Now just to throw this into the mix, as what I was just describing sounds a bit like the event horizon of a black hole: What is Stephen Hawking going on about now with black holes not existing, or at least not being what we think they are?

And likewise, what's all this about data now supporting this being a holographic universe! There's a completely different can of worms that is just bonkers. 8O

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:45 pm

Forge. wrote:Some interesting points!
TomViolenz wrote:
As to the planck scale of distance: As of now it really seems, like this is the shortest distance possible. This is a result of quantum mechanics, I believe. (I'm not a physicist though). So it's not an artefact of not being able to measure shorter distances, but it's a fundamental parameter of the universe. I find this extremely fascinating! This means that reality is actually pixelated! 8O
This is something I'm not sure about though - likewise, I'm not a physicist, so really for me it's just a slightly educated guess, and maybe also based on an 'intuition', but when I read about string/m theory and the like I never feel satisfied at the assumption that we are capable of detecting the smallest point in the universe or that there even is such a thing. My feeling is that the universe isn't pixelated, but it keeps going on in a fractal way, like the mandelbrot-set, forever. It's just very difficult for us to comprehend this because we are used to seeing our reality as having a beginning and an ending because we are born and die and don't yet know what happens to us when we die. Although, even now physicists say that it's impossible for information to be destroyed and it only ever changes state. Maybe like if you were to watch a time lapse of matter decaying then becoming something else it would look like the mandelbrot set over billions of years. They say we each have probably a billion atoms that were also in Shakespeare or the Dinosaurs.
I have to say for me the idea that reality is pixilated is a lot wilder and less intuitive than the current one that thinks reality is analog or your fractal idea. I mean this has a very Matrix kind of feel to it 8O
I also disagree that we are used to seeing reality as having a beginning and an end. (Unless you are the religious type). I think the difficulty is to comprehend how it could have a beginning and an end. Our mind always wants to ask: But what came before that. Even for me it is hard for my intuition to swallow that time itself came into being with the big bang. That's stuff with the potential to drive one mad 8O
Regarding tuning to different frequencies. The described effects of the standing waves are always very dependent on the local parameters of the listening enviroment. So it would be kind of insane to change the whole tuning system, if you could just use another space to play in.
This is why I said this concept might better suit an installation rather than a 'gig'. As someone said before, just changing the pitch of a record is effectively changing the reference point from 440Hz. But the point is +/-8 on a turntable is doing it randomly without taking into consideration the environment, I am just saying that I think it is at least possible to have control over these parameters in a way that could be meaningful, given everything in the universe vibrates at some level. On some level? Sure! On some defined level, that you can tune into? A lot more dubious. The only vibrations that are fixed in their frequency on a fundamental level are vibrations on the smallest scales of fundamental particles and quantum behavior. Everything else is supposition upon supposition and interference upon interference of these small vibrations. You can't tune into this.
Also, I sincerly doubt any effects on cancer cells, if only because cancer cells are normal cells that went rougue. So the pre cancer cell, was the same size with the same dimensions as the surrounding cells, that didn't go the cancer route. Since resonance is very much depending on the dimensions of the medium, I don't see how the cancer cell would respond differently do sound.

Interesting discussions arise, if open mindedness doesn't mean eschewing reason!
Of course, many people are trying to solve the cancer problem, and so still don't fully understand what "going rogue" really is or how it works. I was just using this as a simple example, but maybe those cells do vibrate at a slightly different rate than normal cells? I mean, this would have to be on a sub-atomic Sorry, that's just mumbo jumbo: That's not how biology, genetics and by extention cancer works: Cancer is the result of normals cells mutating. I.e. taking on altered genetic information, with unwanted (for us)properties. Mutations happen on the level of DNA, of which the smallest information unit is a base pair. A base pair is a big molecular unit, so there is nothing sub-atomic about it. Furthermore: Their base pairs don't differ in their physical properties from the ones in healthy cells. They just changed from one normal base pair in this position to another normal base pair. The only thing that is changed is the information content in the context of the sequence. I can not think of a single possible mechanism on the energy levels that sound usually travels at (even far out theoretical ones) of how you could use its vibrational energy to change the base pairing. level and to fully understand something like that we would need to go down to the smallest possible scale we can measure, and as I said before, I wonder if no matter how small you go there is always still something smaller, but if what you said before is right and the universe is indeed pixelated, then this will mean it is possible to one day arrive at a real measurement for the Planck scale, and from that point on we can truly accurately measure everything, because it will be some kind of multiple of the smallest unit.
But for the practical purposes of this discussion: if you are in a club, and you have two speakers directly opposite each other, then at some point in between them there will be a standing wave, so the question is, what happens if you stand at that point, and does the effect change according to the frequency, or combination of frequencies/harmonics?

This is just fun to think about really, and the kind of shit I waste my time and brain power on! ;-)

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by Angstrom » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:35 pm

My favourite thought experiment regarding the entropic arrow of time, is related to Professor John G Cramer's retrocausality experiments. He's trying to send messages backwards in time.

The background to the experiment is the EPR paradox: two paired particles emitted from the same event, the act of measuring one determines the state of the other paired particle. This is the EPR paradox, a thought experiment proposed by Einstein (and pals) to show that something is odd about Quantum theory ("spooky action at a distance"). Because these two particles can get very distant from each other, and FTL communication is not possible, some physicists have proposed that perhaps the information may be flowing backwards in time and affecting the original source. Retrocausality.

so, this is what John G. Cramer is setting up experiments to test

2007
Cramer planned to start out by testing this kind of communication through quantum entanglement - that's the "nonlocal communication" part of the experiment. If that worked, Cramer would go even further: He would send one of the entangled beams (call it Signal A) through a circuitous detour - say, a few miles of fiber-optic cable - then fiddle with it when it came out of the cable. If the principles behind nonlocal communication held true, the evidence of that fiddling should be detected at a corresponding place in the other entangled beam (call it Signal B).

Now brace yourself for the backward-causality part: Because Signal B followed a shorter route to its detector, the fiddling in Signal A could theoretically show up in Signal B before Cramer actually fiddles with Signal A. It would be as if Cramer's actions had an effect that worked backward in time.
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/listen-b ... -1C9166715

where we are at in 2014
Cramer said his retrocausality experiment is currently in limbo. He has always said that there might be some subtle quantum effect that would rule out backward causality, and so far that's been the case.

"The Mark II version of the retrocausality experiment has concluded for now, defeated by detector noise," he said in his email. "I'm currently in the process of writing a new pre-proposal (to a government organization I won't name) seeking funding for a Mark III version of the experiment. It would use noise-free superconducting-transition single photon detectors instead of the too-noisy avalanche photodiodes, would be down-scaled in wavelength a bit so that the entangled photon pairs would be at wavelengths matching the communication industry standard wavelengths for fiber optics, and would use two switched single-mode fiber optic Mach-Zehnder interferometers instead of lenses, prisms and mirrors on an optics table. Said organization is interested because there is the possibility of zero-time-delay communication with distant space missions."
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/backward ... ciencemain

This is the current state of my favourite retro-causality / fight against the entropic arrow of time / thought experiment.

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by andydes » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:52 pm

And this is why I don't get the "there must be more to the universe than just science" crowd.

This stuff is weird enough without bringing stone henge and the pyramids into it.

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:07 pm

andydes wrote:And this is why I don't get the "there must be more to the universe than just science" crowd.

This stuff is weird enough without bringing stone henge and the pyramids into it.
^
+ one hundred million

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Re: Music tuned to 432Hz wtf!?

Post by Nick the Zombie » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:02 pm

sporkles wrote:Screw you, guys - they had me at "many ancient sites". :x
:lol: :lol:

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