Should I switch from Mac to PC?

[Agnishvatta]

Windows is just not stable, folks. I've been in the computer administration biz for years and so I'm relaying this from experience. You might get lucky and have the odd machine that works, but most won't work for long because of how system errors propagate. And then the hardware is cheap, so again, when cutting corners sometimes too much gets snipped off.

If we are just lucky, then there are millions of lucky PC users. It seems the chances of being lucky enough to have a stable windows machine are so high that it's just not quite luck anymore. Maybe it's just your company that's unlucky.

As far as stability goes, my personal view is that Windows allows for a stable and even transparent experience on the PC. Live has never crashed on me, nor has Project5, Reason or Sonar (with the exception of misbehaving plugins). There are many choices for PCs and I agree with quandry about some PCs having cheap components and some having high quality ones, but even if they have cheap components it's not the OS that's causing problems. I've had friends call me up saying that their MAC crashed hard on them, forcing them to reinstall and the situation is no different on a PC.

About speed, raapie mentioned that he heard the OSX GUI is more sluggish than Windows and I've heard the same and in fact I've used them in stores coming to the same conclusion. We all know Live performs better on PC. Reason implements Velocity instructions for the MAC version but doesn't implement SSE1 or SSE2 for the PC version and their stance was that the PC version performs great already. What about those digital video editing results?

As far as OS features, well what can OSX do that Windows can't? I can make windows look how I want, as well as any other program for the PC. So looks just shouldn't be an issue. Just as OSX has stuff like CoreAudio and Audio Units; Windows has WDM and DirectX. Is iTunes really venerable enough to merit the use of OSX over Windows (well I guess this one doesn't matter much since it will be available for Windows)?

These days the only reason I could see in getting a MAC over a PC is if the user already knows how to use a MAC and doesn't want to or can't spend time learning Windows.

This isn't a flame and I'm not trying to form a definitive argument of any kind (too time consuming). This is simply how I see it that's all. For me and many others WinXP is stable, fast and good at what it's meant to be; an OS. The software that one runs on it, has the potential to be 100% stable and Live is the perfect example from my experience. Just as a bad VST plug can take Live down, a bad driver could take Windows down. Is it any different on OSX? I wouldn't think so.

[Alex Reynolds]

This is my last post on the subject -- I promise.

PCs are faster than Macs for using Live. That's not in dispute.

However, Live would probably run as fast or close enough if Ableton would improve the code. Clearly, AV applications other than Live run just fine on a Mac, and Altivec and careful coding go a long way to explain why.

If you prefer to use a Mac, the problem to deal with is not really the Macintosh itself -- though it is an easy target. Consider whether to ask and wait for Ableton to fix their code, or to look at alternative software or hardware.

I'm happy with my setup so I'll just keep pestering every now and then, along with rest of the Mac crowd. I'll also be keeping an eye out on alternative packages for the sound I want to make.

Going to Windows seems a bit extreme just for one application, particularly for a piece of software as immature as this.

But I would get a Windows box if I could find a company that consistently sold solid hardware at a reasonable price, and if I needed Windows-only applications.

Most audio applications can be found on both platforms -- a few exceptions are notable, but by and large you'll be fine whatever you choose.

There are PC vendors which sell good stuff but you will spend as much as you would for a Mac with the same features and quality. Those prices you see listed on Dell's website, for example, are for the lowest end model with the slowest processor, hard drive, memory, etc. As soon as you make improvements the price goes up accordingly.

It's almost scary how people are brainwashed into thinking that PCs are better because they are cheaper.

You can have good or you can have cheap -- but rarely both, in all walks of life.

If you place no value on your time, then by all means, cheap equipment will be an absolute bargain!

I doubt we are an "unlucky" company for the simple reason that we deal with hundreds of computers a year. Nothing personal, but I have greater confidence in the hands-on evidence of those numbers than of that of one user with one or two computers.

We just have to spend more money on tech support contracts -- job security is important in these tough economic times, after all. Microsoft does more for the global economy than they would probably like to admit.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to working on my third CD -- on my Mac -- using many different applications, including, but not exclusively, Ableton Live.

Whatever you pick, I wish you as much fun as possible,

Selah,
Alex

[Guest]

you are an odd one. I have given you repeatedly and CLEAR example of GOOD hardware which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than a MAC.. and you just gloss over it. You have clearly demonstrated your bias.. it's as simple as that.

But whatever... if it keeps you creative them more power to you. But I've heard it over and over and over again.. "if this was optimized like this.. blah blah blah.. then the playing field would even out." Too bad that the MAJORITY of Mac software it not optimized for it's platform.. end even then, you'd barely keep up. These are just the facts. Keep buying into the hype.

[fleveneur]

But whatever... if it keeps you creative them more power to you. But I've heard it over and over and over again.. "if this was optimized like this.. blah blah blah.. then the playing field would even out." Too bad that the MAJORITY of Mac software it not optimized for it's platform.. end even then, you'd barely keep up. These are just the facts. Keep buying into the hype.

I agree with Alex R.
You guys might have great experience with Live but that's not the only software to make music. A lot of artists use Mac because they're easy to use, have good quality components and all the component (Audio card, firewire, USB, 1 Ghz Ethernet) and are built by the same company that sell the OS. Creativity has nothing to do with speed.

Regarding the "Majority" of mac software not optimized, I'd like to know which one you're referring to?

It's a fact that Mac are behind with Processor MHz speed. But the new IBM chip is coming and you'll see a big improvement. In the meantime, Ableton should start programming their software efficiently.

And I think people should start to understand that MHz is irrelevant. Did you know that Intel New Itanium chip operates below 1 GHz. See for yourself. Why would Intel release a processor < 1 Ghz when they have CISC processors almost burning at 2 Ghz? (http://www.intel.com/products/server/pr ... r/itanium/)

Regarding OSX, if you have not used it you can not really criticize.
I'm happy to own and use a Mac and I'm proud to support a company that take the risk to innovate even in difficult time. Microsoft has 40 Billions in the bank and they can not even come with the Online Music idea Apple came out with. They're trying to release a new computer "Athen" which is a joke. (see news.com). Athen can go to sleep and wake up in less than 3 seconds. Hey Bill, Mac had this for years, like Apple had wireless laptop before anyone.
Ipod, is the same thing. I personally prefer to have an ipod and a Mac. I can use my Ipod to store my music, phone number, calendars, my notes and even use it as a Hard Drive.

It's just a matter of time before Live is Altivec optimized and Apple releases their new chip. Than, this won't be an issue.
Apple might (and should) buy Ableton and release a better programmed application like they did with Logic.

[Guest]

I'm not the pushing the idea of processor speeds as the definitive guide to how fast a machine is. However, it's been proven time and time again that even the fastest mac cannot run the fastest PC. So, yes.. my 2.6Ghz Sony Laptop will SMOKE ANY POWERBOOK. I can almost guarantee that. Great I'm happy you have your ipod and cool means of acquiring digital music. I think that stuff is great! I think the integration features of the mac are in a league of their own. I mean, I WORK on MACS EVERY SINGLE DAY! I don't hate them, they are very cool machines.. and I think OS-X is beautiful. They are great computers.

However, what irritates me is the constant BS that is pushed by many mac owners. The idea that PC are not stable... and the constant denial that Macs are in fact slow.. and until the new IBM processor is physically in a machine you can purchase... don't bring it up! I mean look at this thread. Sure some cheap PC's have shoddy components.. but nothing on my Sony is shoddy! and for a laptop it's one of the more expensive... however it's still significantly cheaper that a the biggest badest powerbook.. and it will smoke it. That is my point. It great pulling my memory stick out of my Sony DSC digital camera and just pluging it into the memory stick slot on my laptop. Instant access with no wires, etc.. Sure this might not be important to you, but I take a lot of digital pictures.. so describing the creature comforts is pointless. I'm talking stability and raw power. I'm attempting to dispell the myth that get perpetuated my many a mac owners. Whenever people at my job find out I have a PC they have this shocked look on their face.. like why? Most avid editors are definately Mac people... they have DV Xpress or Final cut on their powerbooks and what not.. but when it comes down to it, they can't give me valid reason why their machine is better.. especially when Avid DV Xpress on my PC outperforms them in every aspect.

[Im Laughing]

macs aren't even flame broiled!

[Guest]

Apple might (and should) buy Ableton and release a better programmed application like they did with Logic.

Is this for real? Someone please show me a link regarding the Apple/Ableton corporate takeover. I wonder if the Abletons would even sell...probably not if Apple wanted them to drop Windows support. Apple obviously has some interest in Live, it's being sold in the SoHo store...on a really huge shelf I might add. But I didn't know they were possibly buying them. I thought Steinberg already did!?! Am I missing something here?

[kuni]

i just recently switched from pc to mac, and i'm not dissapointed at all. it's the entire thing which makes apple feel so good - the hardware, the os, the service. although i've made also negative experiences so far, apples still feel better & more advanced to me. i'm using pc's since '86, mac's since '94, and using both systems simultanously.

[smutek]

I am pretty amused to see that this thread is about 87 posts strong. Also anxious to see what the thread poster decided to do.

[jdg]

yeah TJ..
what did you ever decide?

[tjwett]

Hey, so I went looking for new portables. I went to CompUsa and Best Buy and a few others and checked out some VAIOs and was really impressed with the speed and price. But then I went to the Apple store and got hands-on with the new PowerBooks and iBooks and felt right at home. I'm not shitting on the PC stuff at all, they seemed decent but something just didn't feel right about them. Maybe it was XP, maybe it was the configuration, I don't know. But I don't think any of them really "clicked" with the way I need to work. While some would surely find removable drives, floppys and such useful it would just be a headache for me. Plus I really can't deny the greatness of Core Audio and MIDI. Unfortunately the 17" is out of my budget right now so I'm opting for 12". I know it has no L3 cache but the size it what sold me. I wasn't impressed with the screen resolution though. What I'm gonna do is order a 12" 900mhz iBook for my girlfriend since they are pretty new and try that out for a while. If I can get by with a G3 I'll probably order another for myself. Logic and Reason are my only need for a G4. If I feel the G4 is necessary I'm gonna pick up a new 12" when the next update comes out. I'm thinking they should be here within a few months at the latest. Who knows, maybe they'll add an L3 cache and bump up the screen res. This way, everybody wins. So yeah, I'm sticking with Apple for the time being. I've already invested in Logic and feel that the benefits of Core Audio and Core MIDI are enough to keep me on the platform. More speed would be great but I'm seeing that it really is not the most important thing. It's all about productivity and I need to be comfortable. Speaking of productivity, I've finally used Live 2 and I'm totally blown away. I was impressed with version 1 but this is a whole new ball game. I had a track going last night in about 20 minutes and I didn't even get pissed and throw it away yet! Once I have a way to play VST Instruments in Live it will seriously take over Logic's place as my main application. It is so inspiring and makes so much sense. The Live 2 and Reason 2.5 combo is still amazing as ever. Thanks for all the input from everyone. I'm convinced time and again that this is the most constructive music-related message board on the web. Cheers.

[Agnishvatta]

Congratulations tj, decisions revolving around computers and software is always a drag. Now that you know where your heart is at, your music will probably be better than ever. Having many options has always been a show stopper for me and now that I have Project5 I feel the ungodly desire to spend too much money on VSTi/DXis and too much time thinking about which ones to get.

I'm convinced time and again that this is the most constructive music-related message board on the web.

Having recently spent some time reading through kvr-vst and the props message board, I can only agree. There don't seem to be trolls here, although I was called one by Alex Reynolds.

[tjwett]

Congratulations tj, decisions revolving around computers and software is always a drag. Now that you know where your heart is at, your music will probably be better than ever. Having many options has always been a show stopper for me and now that I have Project5 I feel the ungodly desire to spend too much money on VSTi/DXis and too much time thinking about which ones to get.

Yeah, Project 5 was really the main thing making me consider the switch. I really am dying for VST Instruments in Live! I want to get out of Logic sooo bad, for composition anyway. Hopefully something will turn up soon.

[Benjamin Golinvaux]

rpsx : you were considering to switch from mac (tibook 800) to a thinkpad and you own a RME multiface, right ?

well i have that very setup here : a thinkpad A31 with 1.7ghz p4 and an RME multiface. it works really great. Plus you are using reaktor : i use it too, all of the time. and my dongle stays in the pc all of the time. i won't compare mac/pc performance here since my mac is only 800 mhz (it's a dual but reaktor only uses one cpu) but reaktor is 10 times more stable on the pc.

And, yes, you can have latencies as low as 1.5ms. I usually work with 6ms latency, though, to reduce cpu usage.

it IS rock stable, even though i got some crashes (i mean hard kernel crashes) with old RME drivers. Now, all problems are fixed.

Please note i also have an RME digiface with the mac (boths rme interfaces are linked with adat.... i'm using Logic on the mac as a sequencer and the PC as a rack of instruments (reaktor + live)) and i really miss the mac ability to have several apps using coreaudio at the same time. RME drivers are supposed to be multiclient but they are not, or i'm too dumb to set things up correctly..... (i'm talking about asio here. the regular wave drivers are multiclient). To solve the MIDI multiclient issue i'm using midiyoke (www.midiox.com) and it works great. I can't hear or feel delays.....

go for a thinkpad. they are rock stable (hi quality components) and recommended by RME. they aren't cheap but you get what you pay for.

[fleveneur]

Hey, so I went looking for new portables. I I'm opting for 12".

TJ, great choice man.

I think this will recomfort you. This interview with a famous DJ. As you can see he uses Mac.

http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=a ... kdegiorgio

Hopefully, Ableton monitors those forums and take into consideration users complaints. Hope Altivec is on the top of their list.

What would be nice is if they could give us an update.