Midi foot Controller, is there a need?

thelocalhost · Post by **thelocalhost** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:52 pm

Why is there only a 3, or 4 midi foot controllers on the market?

These controllers are more specifically designed to interface with effects units (e.g.,POD), but can be used to interface with Reason/Live. Currently, I am using a Behringer FCB1010 and it doesn't have the flexibility that I want. Also, the preset programming of the FCB is an embarrassment to mainkind.

I am looking into designing my own pedal that would work with Live/Reason/Logic. It would have basic uses; start/stop/record, change patterns (or clips) in Redrum/Matrix/Ultrabeat, and turn effects on/off/bypass. It'll have 2 expression pedals that could variable control any 2 parameters.

Most importantly, It would work right out of the box. No 'programming' needed. Just open Reason 3, or Live 5, and assign the midi controller via "edit remote overided mapping", or "edit midi map" in Live.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to spend the time if there isn't a need for such a device.

thanks.

computo · Post by **computo** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:05 pm

first of all, the FCB is a pretty powerful device.

Each pedal on that thing can send 5 cc messages and 1 note message, per pedal...and thats not even the expedals. You can do pretty much anything you are talking about with the FCB already.

I use a crappy digitech control 8 which has one expedal, and 5 usable button pedals...

The reason there arent "out of the box" foot pedals (other than ones made for PODS and other specific devices) is that people use them for very specific needs, so they have to be open to programming.

Im sure all of the things you want out of a pedal can be accomplshed with what you have, along with a program like Max, or Plogue, or PD, which will allow you to take WHATEVER incoming data you have, and re-route it according to YOUR specs.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:36 pm

honestly your time might be better spent developing a cool editor for the fcb1010. Or lobbying for them to put some standard setups on it out of the box...

thelocalhost · Post by **thelocalhost** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:27 pm

I think there might me some missunderstanding...

The FCB can send 2 CC (of fixed value), 1 note, and 2 expression controlled (variable) CC values on each preset. It can send 5 Program Changes. However, Program Changes are worthless in Live/Reason/Logic. Let me even further try to explain. CC changes and notes are what it's all about. CCs can turn effects on to particular value, or in Reason be used to bypass an effect, etc... If you want to reproduce a prewritten song live, then you can take the time to setup all of your changes in the presets and (probably) reproduce a your track live. I want to be able to control a hand full of different (important) parameters on the fly in a more exploring/improvisational live setting. Kinda like having a UC-33e that you could control with your feet.

My drummer and I, we create a shitton of sound. He has an hybrid electronic/acoustic setup, and I am playing bass, or guitar, and trigger loops sounds, whatever. He is listening to a click, so I can trigger whatever synth line, or loop and it's all in time (at the correct tempo); whilst I am changing some effects with the 2 expression pedals. The problem of only being able to variably control 2 'faders' or parameters is something that I am not happy with. Maybe having 8 variable foot pedals is absurd, but having 3 expression pedals, with the cability of selecting any cc being sent and control it via the 3rd expression pedal would be perfect.

There are 2 great tools available for programming the FCB. One is a windows based program that is written in visual basic. The second is written in java and is cross platform. The fact that 2 different people have designed a program to program presets in the FCB should tell you something about the setup. It is convoluted on it's best day.

My setup:

preset note CC (value)
1 C0 1 (127)
2 C#0 2 (127)
etc...

(i mainly use the CC's for Reason's Redrum/matrix pattern selection)

The expression pedals are the same for every preset

Ex1 CC50 (0-127)
Ex2 CC51 (0-127)

If you're using it in a different way, I would like to know.

thanks for the input.

M.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:48 pm

Are you planning on starting a production? Because there may be a market for small-footprint advanced controllers with lots of buttons, actually. I've read lots of posts at loopers-delight complaining about the lack of really small controllers on the market - most recently kid beyond shared the main reason why he's using the ground control pro - it fits in his pack...

On a related note, I've recently dicovered the joy of switching stuff with my TriggerFinger - on the ground

Seriously if you own a triggerFinger and use foot controllers, this is the way to ride! Take off your shoes, and you now have sixteen pressure sensitive pads, big enough to trigger without miss-firing stuff, and yet small enough to A: navigate quickly and B: make mad noises while placing your big-ass foot on 8-9 pads at the same time and wiggling about

thelocalhost · Post by **thelocalhost** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:10 am

You've hit a good point.

I am trying to figure out if the effort to build/design a new foot pedal is really worth it. I posted in the Reason forum and the lackluster response was not what I had hoped for. The Live community has jumped a bit more on the idea.

I need the community to tell me what they want to do with a midi foot controller. Someone suggested that I just reprogram the FCB and then people could update their firmware. It's an idea, but I think the FCB is way overpriced. I bet I could design and make a new pedal for a little more than 1/2 the cost of an FCB. It might not be as sleek, but it would definitely more user friendly and designed to work with Live. That would also make it more appealing.

Everyone and anyone,

Please weigh in, I need your thoughts

computo · Post by **computo** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:49 am

look, I know exactly what the FCB can do, and the problem is not devices not being able to "DO" what you want. Any device, any signal, can be rerouted, multiply, gated, attenuated to whatever you want. I dont like saying things twice, but here goes.

ANYTHING you want can be done with that pedal. EVEN program changes can be converted to cc or note messages. Dont be thick. Your board has over 100 presets, and you are using the same cc on every expedal setting?

The problem isnt about bad products, its about ignorant consumers. If you like MIDI, you have no business owning a laptop without Max by Cycling 74.

All of your answers reside within that program. Dont make the world dumber, make yourself smarter, and learn how to use this program. Everything you are asking for is in it.

The MIDI pedal market is full of ideas. No offense, but if you build one specifically for Live or Reason, you are cutting out MOST of your market.

vvsaa867 · Post by **vvsaa867** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:31 am

i, certainly believe that we can have one or more midi foot cont. to the markets whether it be Live-specific or general purpose. creativity isn't always for the neccesity

try out and search around this forum. some of guitarists and gearheads in there are very creative in their own ways about the controller issues.

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/board/viewf ... 867d801280

(sorry about this bad english business, i guess i have lived in Korea for too long....)

su

thelocalhost · Post by **thelocalhost** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:50 am

computo wrote:look, I know exactly what the FCB can do, and the problem is not devices not being able to "DO" what you want. Any device, any signal, can be rerouted, multiply, gated, attenuated to whatever you want. I dont like saying things twice, but here goes.

What? "Any device, any signal, can be rerouted, multiply, gated, attenuated to whatever you want." What does this have to do with anything? We're talking about sending midi signals. Not attenuating, or gating them, or even multiplying midi signals.

computo wrote: ANYTHING you want can be done with that pedal. EVEN program changes can be converted to cc or note messages. Dont be thick. Your board has over 100 presets, and you are using the same cc on every expedal setting? .

Anything .... hum.... You missed the fundamental theme in my post: variable control whilst controlling different loops/patterns is vital. I use the notes, or CC of each pedal to change patterns, or bypass an effects (on/off control). The expression pedals are FIXED to particular effects that are important. I use the Combi rewired through Live extensively and program the expression pedals to control these important parameters. Changing patterns (i normally want to have as many 10 patterns/synth lines/noise to pick from) and then having the expression pedals control different parameters isn't a good idea. Those things should be independent. Sometimes I have set the 1-5 to send notes, then use 6-10 to change what the 2 expression pedals do. It works alright, maybe that's how you use your pedal?

Also, perhaps you could enlighten me. what do you mean by "converting program changes into cc or note messages" with respect to Live/Reason? How are you specifically using Program Changes in Live. Please feel free to post the *.syx file and the Live/Reason file. Impart your infinite wisdom.

computo wrote: All of your answers reside within that program. Dont make the world dumber, make yourself smarter, and learn how to use this program. Everything you are asking for is in it.

This program? are you referring to Live, or Reason?

I strongly disagree. Again, did you miss the main theme of my post? Check out James Bernard demos of Reason 3.0 using a UC-33e controller. It's amazing how the sounds of a single patch are changing. He's interacting with the music and controlling filter/parameters to creating some really interesting new sounds.

computo wrote: The MIDI pedal market is full of ideas. No offense, but if you build one specifically for Live or Reason, you are cutting out MOST of your market.

Did you miss something? 1st, I am specifically designing it to work with live/reason/logic pro. 2nd, I am trying to find out if people want a cheaper and better option to use these guitar midi controllers. Many people might find having a foot controller to stop/start/etc.. be very useful, But don't want the hassle (or the cost) of 'programming' the fcb (or equivalent).

To reiterate the theme of this post: I don't think the FCB (or equivalent) is the best midi foot controller ever made. It has some limitations. It was designed to interface with the units like the POD. It also has Program Changes; this allows for presets of the POD to be an selected. These are special messages that are different that 'normal' midi messages.

Also feel free to post how you are using your FCB and explain why you are so angry

computo · Post by **computo** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:59 am

The point isnt to use program change in Live...its to change those basically useless messages into usable messages...i.e. control change, or note messages.

You NEED to look at Max and see what you can do with it. Otherwise this is like trying to sell hotdogs to someone who has never heard of a hotdog.

www.cycling74.com

NO ONE is saying the FCB is the "greatest footboard ever made" but it is a powerful board. But NO midi device these days is primed for use. the reason is that NO ONE has the same use.

My point is, why buy or even design, a new product, when everything is software based anyway? Why not just interrupt the signal from pedal to program, with another more powerful and helpful program, which by the way uses VERY little cpu?

Im not trying to diss you, but once you check out Max, you will be a bit more enlightened on the subject. Also, one thing that may help you, is to read the Reason Control Surfaces.pdf, particularly the Advanced section. The way he gets so much going on at once is thru programming text files. In addition, the editor for the combi is key.

But if you think the editor for the Combi is useful, you will shit a brick about max.

thelocalhost · Post by **thelocalhost** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:26 am

Your point is well taken. I didn't see where you were going with the program change idea. Basically, just send any midi signal (or a program change

) to MAX, then program MAX to output the acutal signal that will be interpeted in the audio program. (this is somewhat similar to the 'envoirnment' in Logic Pro, you can build an arpeggio, chords, scales to be played off of one input note)

It seems like the midi controller implentation in these audio programs is just starting to become powerful. I assume the (easier) use of program changes will be the next evolution of midi controlling for programs like Live/Reason/Logic. I wanted to use program changes to control Logic Pro's Guitar Amp effect, but I never figured that out. Perhaps, the Max is the answer.

I think I've come to conclusion that I should have (or a make) a simple separate pedal that can be used for selecting patterns/clips. Anything else I need (right now) should be done via the FCB or equivalent. Playing around with Max might change that. It's appears to be a powerful little tool.

Thanks for the input.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:53 am

computo wrote:My point is, why buy or even design, a new product, when everything is software based anyway? Why not just interrupt the signal from pedal to program, with another more powerful and helpful program, which by the way uses VERY little cpu?

First of all, one of the main arguments was that the fcb was overpriced, for what it does. Now, may I remind you that max is even more expensive than the fcb? - I tend to agree with the price-gripe, since a diy midi box could easily be set up to for instance switch states each time it's activated, transmit multiple midi notes, etc. And the diy boc could have: more buttons, more pedals (try programming more hardware buttons in max - no matter how you go about it you're still limited to ten buttons - and if you think 10 will always be enough, then you're not rocking hard enough)
Secondly, it all has to do with interfacing. Apart from the limited number of buttons on the fcb, how long would it take you to code a max patch, that will make the incoming midi from the fcb work smoothly alongside your playing? Now imagine someone not familiar with max trying to do the same thing...

I could easily imagine a 27 button board (24 switches, preset up/down and an Edit/save switch) work very well with live, allowing users to program multiple midi note transmissions with their feet, without ever taking their hands of their midi controllers. I'd buy one.

I'm sorry mate, but what I'm reading is a user requesting feedback in order to design a better foot pedal system, and then another user saying "oh, well, you need to buy this 250$ software instead" - it's just not the same thing

Martyn · Post by **Martyn** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:50 am

Could you use Pure Data to do it? Its free, multi platform and very similar to Max, it was programmed by Miller Puckette who originally programmed Max.

http://www-crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/software.html

It's all way over my head but I've seen people do very similar things with it.

I have an old Yamaha midi floor pedal that I've been trying to get working with Live, without success, for the same reasons, so I'm quite interested to see if there's a workaround. I've been thinking that Plogue Bidule might be able to translate prog change into note number, it seems it has quite a learning curve, although it's nothing compared to the likes of Max and PD.

computo · Post by **computo** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:07 pm

Yes PD could be used, which I said originally.

Second, Machinate, You have absolutly no clue what you are taking about.

The FCB is a behringer product. The ONE company, that skimps on anything they can to produce as cheap a product as possible. So HOW could you make a pedal with twice the buttons, that is equally as durable, yet keep the price down below $150? I've been building controllers for years, and I know its not as simple as saying "I could build better for cheaper."

If you can do it, you have a much better deal on raw materials than some of the larger gear companies in the world. Plus you arent paying slavelabor wages, like Behringer. Also, good luck paying for R&D.

Additionally, there are 100 presets on the FCB, thats 100 buttons and 200 possible ex pedal configurations. Thats almost 300 buttons. Everyone can send on a different channel. 128 *16 < 10 buttons. Also, programming a max patch to do something like take a Program Change, and make it send a Midi note or cc is some of the easiest beginner shite that Max has to offer. I program in my sleep, and its FAR more intellectual and success-driven than complaining about the drawbacks of a device.

Sorry, but Max is the END-ALL solution to MIDI and Audio and even Video desires. PD is good, but you wont get the kind of support you get from the Max community.

My point, AGAIN, is that $150 is cheap, especially for a powerful board like the FCB, but dont be settled with stock MIDI setups, they suck. Change the paradigm with Max, I did. I run EVERY Midi device I use live through max...if for nothing else, to be able to use otherwise useless devices i.e. the crossfader on the Xsession, or all my USB game devices. Download the free for a month demo, it includes everything so you can get acquainted.

Shit, if you guys have THAT much issue with this, I'll MAKE you a patch, just tell me what you want it to do.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:45 pm

Computo dude, we aren't against you or anything - just exchanging ideas. Okay?

I still think a cheaper, cooler box could be built, based on Mios (no good luck needed for the R&D) and I could certainly get the parts cheaper and I don't need to make a profit building my own board and labour costs are 0. If you don't believe me - fine. I can live with that. And no matter how much you program in your sleep, you can't make the fcb with its hundreds of configs change from bank a to bank b without either programming in advance or stepping on a bank switch. And max can't reduce the footprint of the fcb either, or the constant hum of the psu, or the weigth

And I would *never* claim that building a controller would be simple. I think I'll go do it anyway, though. Cya.