Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

[Angstrom]

Live 3 is perfect, all you guys going on about Midi should just go somewhere else. Go back to your Pro24. Ableton Live3 is perfect without midi, or VST support. This should never change. It can never be improved past this perfection, which is Live 3. Get back to making music and stop worrying about things we don't need, such as midi. I tried midi once and it was not as good as live 3.

/s

[TTOZ]

The funniest thing I have ever read about Bitshit to this day:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 9&t=408425

That's just classic. I really had no idea it couldn't even do *that*.

[nemoy]

I just wanted to say, that i really don't like ableton live trying to be a DAW.
They're slowly but surely screwing it's original functionalities as a live performance tool.
I don't see, why they're trying so hard to be something, they're not that good at
while at the same time loosing focus on what they are good at...

I mean i'd never chose Live as a DAW for actual productions!
if it comes to multitrack recordings, proper mixing & Mastering,
I always render stuff out and go to another software.
you know, one of those, where PDC isn't an issue.

So don't get me wrong, PDC is essential for a DAW.
but for me, ableton isn't a DAW. and i don't want it to be!

[Machinesworking]

The funniest thing I have ever read about Bitshit to this day:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 9&t=408425

That's just classic. I really had no idea it couldn't even do *that*.

I obviously agree with you on this point.
I don't expect fun looping based sequencers like Live, Fruity Loops, Renoise, Bitwig etc. to do everything, their places of focus is clear, I do expect them to communicate with other DAWs though, and the fact that Bitwig are coming out the door with huge glaring omissions in terms of this is a total put off.

No ReWire, MIDI export, .sd2, REX, or .caf import, and it looks like bouncing all tracks to separate audio files would be a matter of 'bouncing in place' all audio files etc. then exporting those, at least that's the option I can come up with?

So Bitwig think you should use only Bitwig it seems.

[su]

but for me, ableton isn't a DAW. and i don't want it to be!

Then again, there are 1000s of us, maybe even the majority of users, who *do* use it as a DAW. Personally, I never use Live to perform Live.

Not pointing fingers at you personally Nemoy, I'm just a little perplexed at the volume of folks who go on music forums and try to argue that a piece of software should be changed so that it fits their individual needs. Especially when said software, by design serves a wide variety of needs and situations.

[yur2die4]

Great statement nemoy.

Now if only they could devise a good application of the different kinds of arming..... things involving Live usage!

I found it amusing that after downloading and installing Live 9 for the first time, I was initially lost. As if I had never used the program in my life. They've really got a confusing situation with prioritizing how they handle channel arming and recording for live use.

[Machinesworking]

So don't get me wrong, PDC is essential for a DAW.
but for me, ableton isn't a DAW. and i don't want it to be!

They have PDC almost right for performance. You can select that record enabled tracks have a much lower buffer to compensate for PDC issues etc. but people, myself included would like better PDC. That timing for automation slips isn't a total deal killer, but IMO it's a worthy addition, much more so than notation or embedded mastering plug ins etc.

Though I would take multiple Live Sets in a single Project over PDC any day, the main thing that sucks using Live live is that you have to open another Set in order to reassign Key and MIDI etc. So if anything I would like to see Live steal from Bitwig it's the multiple sets in a project concept.

[RDiiO]

The limitations of your DAW and in this case PDC are not flaws: they’re features. Instead of fighting with them, accept them. a lot of great records were made with 24 tracks or less, and a load of other limitations we never have to think about. I think ableton is a really powerful mixing tool and the “limitations” it has can help someone find creative ways to make a better mix.

[Machinesworking]

The limitations of your DAW and in this case PDC are not flaws: they’re features. Instead of fighting with them, accept them. a lot of great records were made with 24 tracks or less, and a load of other limitations we never have to think about. I think ableton is a really powerful mixing tool and the “limitations” it has can help someone find creative ways to make a better mix.

Good for you.

I made great stuff with a Mac Plus and a Mirage, but I certainly don't want to go back to using that.

[Willyum]

but for me, ableton isn't a DAW. and i don't want it to be!

Ableton has won DAW of Year many times in a row by many different organisations and publications, and almost every salesperson I overhear talking to someone has been recommending Live or Logic as their top two DAW choices. Ableton Live most certainly is a Full features DAW and has been so for years. 90% of all DJs are producers in disguise.

[re:dream]

but for me, ableton isn't a DAW. and i don't want it to be!

Then again, there are 1000s of us, maybe even the majority of users, who *do* use it as a DAW. Personally, I never use Live to perform Live.

Not pointing fingers at you personally Nemoy, I'm just a little perplexed at the volume of folks who go on music forums and try to argue that a piece of software should be changed so that it fits their individual needs. Especially when said software, by design serves a wide variety of needs and situations.

Iam one of those who use Live as a DAW. But I would really not want Ableton to lose Live's unique focus on the things that set it apart - phenomenal flexibility in sound generation, looping, routing etc - in the effort to ape what all the other DAWs on the planet are doing.

For that reason, I am personally not bothered at all about PDC. I just don't need it, and (if I understand it correctly) Live's own approach to timing is very much linked to their approach to latency in a performance situation.

[Angstrom]

editd - too damn wordy

[Angstrom]

For that reason, I am personally not bothered at all about PDC. I just don't need it, and (if I understand it correctly) Live's own approach to timing is very much linked to their approach to latency in a performance situation.

This is a misunderstanding of the problem.It is not in any way a benefit to live performers, or some sort of "DAW thing". The issue stated very simply is :

In Ableton Live, any "synced devices" can go out of sync with the music

That is, if you use anything like beat repeat, or any Max4Live device which has any kind of beat, sync, or timing facility. Regardless of whether you are on stage or in a studio.

Here is a very simple example for you.
>>>DOWNLOAD THE EXAMPLE FILE<<< (26kb .als)

In this example an open hi-hat plays on the beat, and an Autopan is set to 16th notes. The autopan is a "synced" effect, it should be in sync with the time of the song.
Play the set, it sounds correct.

There are 3 (de-activated) compressors before the autopan. Turn the Macro dial marked "turn me", this will alter the look-ahead value of the compressors, adding latency to the chain.

Notice that the autopan (synced) effect goes out of time. Notice that the compressors are off, and that this is not a very extreme example.



Can you hear this?
Do you think that out of time effects are good for a live performer? Do you think this is just a DAW thing?

Consider what would happen if you were using a more complex set, perhaps using a few Max4Live synced effects or VST instruments, a BeatRepeat, a glitch plugin. Consider what layers of this effect might sound like.

Consider the variety of automation and various timing events affected by this.

Hopefully this clarifies the issue.

[re:dream]

Thanks, that's a very useful explanation esp for us n00bs.

I do know that plugins cause timing issues.

Still, I have never had a situation where this has been a problem for me.

Must be doing something wrong

[su]

Don't get me wrong, I found the vids posted by the OP chilling. I definitely would like to see PDC fixed.